The Joy of Improv
What happens when Atlanta improvisers open up about the craft they love? Joel Camargo finds out, sitting down with performers across every experience level to talk philosophy, technique, stories, and the lessons that stick with you long after the lights go down. If you study improv, this is essential listening. If you live and breathe it, you're going to feel right at home.
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The Joy of Improv
Jenny Holden
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This week I'm joined by Jenny Holden, a true veteran of the improv world who's put blood, sweat, and tears into the craft and performed all over the country and around the globe.
We trace her winding path from a high school art kid at Dad's Garage, to wardrobe work in Las Vegas, to cutting her teeth in Chicago and touring professionally with the legendary musical improv team Baby Wants Candy.
Along the way we get into some of my favorite topics: Musical improv and teaching. We discuss how short form quietly makes you a better long form player, and what it really takes to succeed at musical improv. Jenny also gets honest about achieving your dreams and the strange void that follows, the importance of taking breaks and actually living life, and her hard-won perspective on being a woman in improv — the old boys' club, generational divides, and what real change could look like. It's a warm, funny, and genuinely wise conversation. Enjoy.
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Host: Joel Camargo - Insta - @joelc1225
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Introduction
JoelWelcome everyone to another episode of the Joy of Improv Podcast with me, Joel Camargo. Today our guest is the lovely Jenny Holden. Jenny is an improviser who has put the proverbial blood, sweat, and tears into the art of improv and has not only performed all over the country, but around the world as well. We talk about how important it is to experience world and cultural touchstones in order to be a better improviser. We also talk about the importance of taking breaks and living life outside of improv generally and how that can influence your improv in a beneficial way. We talk about what it was like for Jenny to return to Atlanta from living in Chicago and touring as a professional improviser. We also talk about two of my favorite things in the world musical improv and teaching. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Jenny Holden. Thank you everybody for tuning in to another episode of the Joy of Improv Podcast. I am here with now with Jenny Holden, the one and only.
JennyThe one and only.
JoelThe one and only.
JennyLike thankful that there is only one.
JoelAnd don't Google it. And also don't Google it. Just take our word for it. This is the one that they're doing. The one and only.
JennyActually, uh I for SAG, I I could have Jenny Holden. Like there are no other Jenny Holden. Really? In SAG. Yeah.
JoelHoly crap. Yeah. That's huge.
JennyIf I ever pick up my acting career.
JoelIs your email also just Jenny Holden?
JennyNo, it's Jenny of Holden. There are I did not get a Jenny Holden email.
JoelYeah, I met somebody the other day that just had their first and last name perfectly. What the hell? Yeah.
JennyWere they did they just like as soon as Gmail came in? Yeah.
JoelThat's what they said. They said it as soon as uh emails were new, the enter in the ins at the inception of the internet.
JennyWhen it was on a disc.
JoelYeah, they got their first and last name and got it.
JennyOh man. Yeah that that is legacy. That's legacy. That is something I would brag about. I would put it on my resume.
How It Started: Art Class & Dad's Garage
JoelJenny, you've been a part of the improv scene for a long time. Veteran in the scene, um, have performed in multiple cities. I'd love for Atlanta to get to know you better and to hear about your journey to improv.
JennyYeah, I mean, it did start in Atlanta. It started at Dad's garage. Um I in high school was uh I did not speak. I didn't speak, I was afraid. I did not talk to humans, and uh my guidance counselor was like, you cannot take another studio art class because I was just like, I just painted and like drew, and uh I was thought I I thought I was gonna be a Disney like animator. So I I spent all of my time in the art studio and I try not to think about whether or not Mr. Brian, the art teacher, was just like, get her out of my office. Um, but the guidance counselor was like, you cannot take another art class, so you have to choose something else. And she she was like, it's either this like boring elective, I don't even remember what it was, or theater. And I was like, I mean, theater seems kind of cool. I don't I'll just try that.
JoelAnd this was high school?
JennyThis was high school. Okay. Um, and the high school teacher, Miss Sondheim, she was super weird and chill, and she spent like quite a while on like improv. And uh I ended up being like, oh, oh, my brain works this way. Like the like the and now no it's ADHD, but like my my free association brain works this way. Um and I
Moving to Atlanta
Jennyjust kind of kept going with it because it felt like the most connected to like the external world than really anything else. Uh I because there was there was no like consequences. Not that there are no consequences, but like when you're improvising, that's it's make-believe. It doesn't, it's like the points uh the points aren't real and they don't matter, and we're just making this up. And so I just kind of kept with theater for a really long time. Uh went to school for it. I wish I didn't because I am uh in the college. Yeah, I'm in debt because why did I think I could go to school for my dreams? Um it's a trap. Uh, don't do it. And so when I moved to Atlanta to become an actress, um I auditioned for Unifieds. I don't even know if that's still a thing.
JoelI'm not familiar.
JennyUm, it's it's just like a cattle call audition that all of these theaters go to. And um, I got an email from Dad's Garage saying that they were doing this like rookie program. And so I took uh the rookie program, like classes, and ended up in Gen Co and was like having a blast before I landed another job um that would take me to Las Vegas. And so uh I spent quite a few years uh just on my formative years at Dad's Garage.
The Transient Improv Scene in Las Vegas
JoelAnd when you went to Las Vegas and you stepped away from Atlanta, was there any improv in Las Vegas that you were talking about?
JennyThere is a small, tight-knit community there, but the thing about Las Vegas is that everybody is it's a transient city. Everybody's just there to work or they're there for like two nights to be the most version, like the worst versions of themselves. Um, and then they leave. And there's not a lot of people who live there or make their lives there. There are people um that live like outside of you know the the city limits. Um, but there's just not a lot of people who do improv there. Um, I think it's getting a little bit better. Like, even like when I got there, Second City had just shut down their location there. Like they didn't have a location anymore.
JoelOkay.
JennyUm, that's like how like kind of weirdly non-committal the city was about it. But there was a tight knit knit group, and it was actually the thing that like I was doing shift work, so I was working really late in the evening, and I would get home when the sun came up because I was working at a nightclub and um doing not interesting things. I was not like a a like a bottle service girl. I was I was in the back telling go-go dancers when to go on stage.
JoelLike a stage manager or something. Yeah, it was a dancer.
Wardrobe for Chippendales
JennyYeah, it was uh I did their like I managed their wardrobe and like they had aerial artists as well. Um I also worked at the Chippendales, which is the job that originally took me out to Las Vegas, is that I was a wardrobe manager for the Chippendales tour. And then I took over the Vegas show as their wardrobe mistress.
JoelAnd these sound like fun gigs.
JennyThey are they are fun gigs, but they are like it is it is uh the best of times, it is the worst of times.
JoelI see.
JennyUm you do all of this cool stuff, but it is grueling, it's long hours, it's um maybe uh dealing with people who don't necessarily respect you because they're the one with the abs and you are there to dress them. Um it was like a really hard period in my life. Like it was just work nonstop. I didn't know anybody in Las Vegas, it was just hot, you couldn't go outside for like two months out of the year, and I just didn't have a great time. Like it wasn't for me. So when I did find these like these cool kids that were doing improv, um, I I'm sure that there are a lot more now, but like back in what 2010 or something, um I wasn't I just didn't know anybody and the the scene wasn't really developed. So once I found my way back to improv, I was like, oh yeah, the last time I was really happy and excited about doing something, it was improv and doing like performing and teaching classes and all of that stuff. So um that's when I decided to, you know, pick up my life once more and move to Chicago.
Cutting Her Teeth in Chicago
JoelOh, so you went to Chicago next.
JennyYes. Okay. So I bounced uh from Atlanta to Las Vegas to Chicago, and Chicago, I feel like is where it really cut my teeth.
JoelOh, talk about that. Yeah, cut your teeth. I love that phrasing.
JennyYeah. Um so there is just improv everywhere. There's so many theaters. There's so many theaters, there's so many people who are just so excited to do improv, to talk about improv, like to go see shows together, to hang out at the theaters. There's always something to do. And Chicago's a great city because you can get around anywhere. Like the transit, the public transit is incredible. Um, so it was really easy for a like a really poor person like me who is like scrounging it together together like quarters so I can buy a muffin in the morning or something. It was really easy for me to get to improv and like really find like a friend group
Scholarships & a City That Wants You to Play
Jennythere.
JoelUm there's something like every day. Every day there's something about the community, yeah.
JennyAnd you could get scholarships. I got a scholarship to study at Second City for no money because I was working like at the student center. Um, and uh there were there was a scholarship for like taking classes at I.O. that I got, and so it was a it was a place where people wanted you to be able to do improv together. Like if it was something that you were really passionate about, there were things that you could do to uh ensure that you got training or you got performance opportunities and you didn't necessarily have to pay for it because everybody loves it so much. They love it as much as you do, and they want everybody to be able to experience it.
JoelYeah, I imagine that trade-off feels fair when you're just helping and working the theater, and then it's like a scholarship.
JennyYou're hanging out with a bunch of other kids who like the same nerdy thing you do. Yeah. Yeah.
JoelAnd cutting tell me about the classes there. Well, actually, before we let while we're gonna talk about classes, you mentioned the rookie program at Dad's Garage. For the for listeners who aren't aware, because they don't have that structure anymore.
What the Dad's Garage Rookie Program Was
JennyOh, yeah, that's right.
JoelCan you elaborate on what the rookie program is in general company?
JennyYeah. So uh way back when, when they were still on Elizabeth Street, the old building, um, they had uh three tiers of uh like improviser at their theater. And I was a part of the first rookie class. So uh it was a group of people that they had tapped through uh like uh unified auditions around the city, or through their class system, or real like just people who were around the improv scene um that they would tap them and say, Hey, we're doing this thing where we're kind of trying out like a it's basically like a training system for our main stage performers. Um so it was it was just a place where you got to do like regular rehearsals taught by any of the of the dad's garage like ensemble at the time. And you got opportunities to hop into uh like mainstage shows. There were also Genko shows that were like on Thursday nights or Wednesday nights, um, that weren't necessarily like the main stage shows, but they they were still like a pretty big deal because it's dad's garage.
JoelYeah, they brought back Gen Co shows, which is I think incredible.
JennyI think that is an incredible like way to build your community and feel like people can own improv in the city.
JoelYeah.
JennyUm, so uh it was like a year of classes, and at the end of it, you were either asked to join the Gen Co. Or I think you could still stay in the rookie program if you wanted. Um, but like a few of us got asked to like join the Gen Co. And uh so it's not the ensemble, but it's like is it the the key performers that are like there every day, all day. They are performing, they're around the theater, they're doing like the jobs, gigs, all of that. They were the performers that like filled out around the ensemble members.
JoelThat's the general makeup of this group of general company folks, is people who are involved in other areas of helping dads garage or that's awesome. Um yeah, people who are already helping in in the community and helping dads in marketing or teaching or camps, whatever the case is. Yeah.
JennyYeah. So I uh back then I would like help out with costumes. And um because I went to school for theater and it was like more of a like focus on design tech and technology is the like the word for it, the the term for it. But I was like really into costume design and like set design. So uh and scenic painting was just like that big, it's like large scale neural size painting. Um really anything that I could do to be like involved because I'm I'm uh I'm a whole ass. I throw my whole ass into stuff. I don't half ass a whole lasser anything. I'm I'm a whole lasser. Um because I want to learn or I want to be involved, like I just want to be immersed in in the thing because I want to be the greatest at it.
JoelYeah, I love that. Uh I feel similarly. And I I you said before rookie classes. Did the rookie clas a group have specific classes that were different than the levels?
JennyThe level one, level two, level three, like yes, it was it was more like uh the conservatory.
JoelI see.
JennyIt was more uh focused on um you didn't really need to learn the like the basics of performing and like you know, like projection or like standing so people can see your face. Um you also know the basics of yes and you have some sort of yeah, all the all the pillars are there, they're they're there, but you're not necessarily polished or like you're not who you are going to become yet. Okay. Like you're still moldable. Um and so it was it was just uh it was more like a rehearsal instead of a class. I see. But it it's it was essentially just a training ground for their their Genko.
Comparing Styles: Dad's Garage, IO, UCB & Second City
JoelVery nice. How did your experience learning improv in Atlanta compare to now we're back to Chicago?
JennyUm it's a very it's a different style. Like you hear about um LA having a different style from Chicago style improv and different styles between like UCB or IO, um all these different layers. Yeah, it's just a different kind of like attack at comedy. Um Dad's Garage is very comedy heavy. Like it is about making the funniest like choice that's still like a good artistic choice. It's about like finding little ways to uh subvert things. Um it's very like play heavy. Um, but Io is a little bit more character-focused and it's a little bit more uh like TJ and Dave is uh one of their older flagship shows, um, where it was just two guys living in whatever reality they had they had come up with. But it was living, and it wasn't necessarily like, oh, this is a funny conceit, or like let's play a game, or let's like figure our way around this story in the funniest way possible. Um, it was more about character as being kind of the vehicle for funny.
JoelYeah, I I love that and I love the description because I feel similarly about the Dad's Garage curriculum. Um but what's funny is that they would say they would advertise themselves as narrative focused. Um but it but I feel like the classes, the class structure and the show structures tend to lean short short form and it's very yeah.
JennySo short form, like I think that Dad's Garage is like one of the best short short form theaters I've ever played at. Um they really know their way around a game or a joke, or just like the sense of like we are children at play.
JoelYeah.
JennyIn like a very respectful way, children at play, not just like we're just fucking around. Um it's it's taking it's taking you back to that sense of make-believe joy. Like they're really joyful performers, like it's all really fun. Yeah um and there are just different, there's just different approaches for different things. Like uh UCB in LA, they're heavy game play and they're very technical. They love format and breaking format, and they are also like really, really funny, but it is all about um, how can I break this game? How can I take this to the nth degree? It's all about heightening and finding like this is the thing that we are going to do for this next three minutes that we are in this scene. This is what this scene is about, and identifying it really quickly. Um and uh I always like character-focused, and the annoyance is all about like stick with your shit, like hang on to it. Like you're gonna come into this scene, you're already gonna have a reality in your brain. So, like you're gonna have a perspective, emotion, or an action that you are doing and you are not going to drop it as soon as the other person makes an offer. You're gonna hang on to your shit.
JoelYeah.
JennyUm, which is also like a really cool and different way to approach it. So we're all approaching this like sense of uh make-believe and fun and joy. Uh, it's just different people do it in different ways. And if anybody ever says that they like have figured out improv, they are lying.
JoelThey are lying. Yeah.
JennyThis is not a thing that you figure out right now.
JoelThere's always something to learn. There's always something to learn.
JennyThere's always a different way that you can attack something. So like you don't necessarily have to be like, oh, I I play in uh UCB style.
JoelYeah.
Meisner as "Improv for Actors"
JennyI'm an A an I.O. performer. Um, you can take what what works for you, like what feels most natural to you. Um, and one of the things that felt most natural to me is that I like I was in theater, so I like Meisner was a huge like thing that I drew a lot of my style from. Um and it's not for everybody.
JoelYeah, and like Meisner also is primarily an acting technique. Right.
JennyIt's uh it's taking like if this is true, what else is true about your character? Like it's also noticing the other person, it's pulling your performance out of the other person, like noticing like your eyebrows make this person look like a sad, they have like a sad look on their face. Now I am comforting a a friend.
JoelUm I love Meisner being included in improv. I don't think we do it enough. And just for those who don't know, Meisner is this is uh like a repetition exercise. Yeah. Right? How would how would you describe it for listeners?
JennyUh Meisner is improv for actors. It is uh you are pulling directly from your partner, it's about your partner, it's noticing things that they are doing in real life so that your Starting to tell a story with just like the a hint of a smile, or they they started like scratching their nose. So now something is like maybe some sort of like itch powder is involved or something. Um it's finding uh the truth of the scene in the truth of your partner.
JoelYeah.
JennyYeah.
JoelUm Meisner, I feel like I've only done a few workshops with of my with Meisner in Improv with Brett Schultz and and with you when during our Measure Island coaching sessions. And what I find is that that that practice is so important because it gets me so locked in and listening to every little thing, every word, every movement, every eye twitch, every body language shift. Because oftentimes in improv scenes, new improvisers, we're just listening
Getting Out of Your Own Way on Stage
Joelfor the funny thing. Well, or sometimes we're not even listening. We're uh preparing our next line and not even listening.
JennyYeah, or you're just like do you're distracted by yourself being on stage, people are looking at you. Yeah. Because like we're animals, we're animals, and we have like predator prey, um, like lizard brains. Yeah. And people are looking at you, and that's danger. Like way back when that would be a lion is looking at you because they are going to eat you. So it's a very human response. So instead of being like, oh my God, I have cotton mouth, oh my god, uh, I'm shaking, or uh, I don't think I I don't think I said that right, or it's that survival instinct. Instead of focusing on yourself, you're taking yourself out of your own brain. And and then basically taking yourself out of your own way.
JoelYeah, that's just focusing on your team partner because they are giving you everything you need.
JennyEverything that you need, yeah.
JoelEverything you need. Um in in one of my favorite improv books, Improv Beyond Rules by Adam McGiddo, um, he was teaching as a professor in some college in the UK. And uh I'm gonna uh paraphrase this um his story in the book, but essentially he was teaching improv to college students at this university. Um it was a fancy theater school, I forgot the name. And at one point he started teaching Meisner for six weeks ahead of the rest of the improv curriculum. And he noticed that for the students that got the Meisner head start of the improv curriculum became better listeners, better performers in general, just so much more in tuned whenever they were on stage to their scene partners.
JennyYeah. And that's it really is a hack. It's a hack. It's and that's how you find your way into the scene. That's where you find the most like I say truth, um, because it's it is um an unfiltered raw like interpretation of your partner. It's they are, they do look sad. So the audience already they trust you because you're just saying what we're all seeing. And I don't know if you know this, but like I I think people are just so funny. People watching is one of my favorite things to do for like my past jobs. I've been, I've had to travel so much. So being in an airport and watching people is so oh yeah, just funny. People are they're weird.
JoelTheir airport is prime people watching.
JennyYeah. And so like everything a person does is is like they're all we're all different in like these really weird niche, just tiny detailed ways. So if you can pull like an emotion or an environment or a character out of a like, like you said, like a nod or an eye twitch or what have you, why not? Why wouldn't you take that opportunity and build on something that is already true? Like it is such a easy way into a scene. And I think people don't they get in their own way because they're they're thinking about like the performance end or the their their own survival. But if truly, if you do the Meisner technique correctly, you do not have to do any work at all. It's all right there. You don't have to you don't have to pull anything out of the air because your k your partner is giving you everything that you need.
Doing Meisner "Correctly"
JoelI heard you just now say do it correctly. What does that mean, you think? I mean I feel like every teacher has a different style of teaching it. For sure. And I've heard in the acting community here that different people prefer different teachers because of the way they teach Meisner differently, their style. So, what's your opinion on what is the best approach?
JennySo, of course, all of this is subjective because it's all art and we're all unicorns and we're all special. Um, the way that I see doing Meisner correctly is that there is no pretense. There is no performative nature. There is nothing you are putting on yourself or your partner that is false. Everything feels very unfiltered, very raw, like the emotions that you're feeling, they are there's no layer of like ego over it. Um, it's pure id. It's pure noticing human to human. Um, and when I see people do the repetition exercise and I can see that they are fully locked into the other person and there's no performance going on, that's when the most interesting shit happens. It's when you forget that this is like I have to be entertaining. Because, like I said, people are entertaining, they're funny, just like by being. Um, it's when you take away that like need to please everybody who is watching you, that's when interesting stuff starts happening. Because we're not used to looking at each other in such a raw, unfiltered way. We are it's not safe in the world to do that. We all put on different masks, we all need to survive, we all need to make money. So we go to our job and we are a different person there, we're a different person with certain friend groups, not like too different because that's you know, that's a sociopath. But um you you carry yourself through life with at least of a fine veneer of acceptable human society. But if you do it, if you do the Meisner exercise correctly, in my opinion, all of that goes away.
JoelYeah.
JennyAnd we get to see people at their rawest, at their most like pure. And that is inherently interesting and entertaining.
JoelAnd it is extremely vulnerable. It can feel uncomfortable, so uncomfortable. Um, it can be awkward, uncomfortable, very vulnerable. I've I've ex I've seen in class um certain Meisner workshops, people break down into tears.
JennyBecause they're not used to being seen.
JoelThey're not used to being so vulnerable and seen. Yeah, I think that was so great because I remember the the the how can I word this? The person was trying to articulate their thoughts in that moment in that workshop and was struggling to put words to it, and they're like, I I don't know why. Um this is making, yeah, this is fat. And we just paused, we did deep breaths and everything as a class, but it was just so vulnerable. It's just so raw.
JennyAnd that's why the it is a repetition. It's taking your brain out of, I must come up with something new. It becomes like almost like a meditative exercise. You don't remember you don't actually like remember that you're saying ohm. You don't actively think about like, oh, that ohm is different from this ohm, and I need to make the next one even more interesting. You are just saying it to remove that need to produce or provide or anything until the next new thing you notice comes up. You don't have to, you don't have to produce, you don't have to entertain. So taking this like meditative, like I'm repeating, you're repeating, I'm repeating, you're repeating is to take you out of your brain and just feel and notice. We don't notice things. Like I mean, like, oh god, this is groundbreaking. What I am saying is um that like our screens are like ruining people's mind. Brain rot is real. Um, no, but like it is. It is um like we separate ourselves from the world because the world sucks sometimes. Most of the time it sucks. Things are uncomfortable, we're upset, we're afraid. We are trying to protect ourselves in some way. We are trying to live to the next day. We are searching for happiness, and happiness is an elusive creature. Like we are constantly putting up barriers between ourselves, our like truest, deepest self, and the world. So when you're going into this like meditative repetition, all of that kind of gets stripped away and you start to feel things. And certain people, like, we all walk around with different levels of like I'm super in touch with like I I have big emotions. Like, if I feel something, it is like super plainly obvious, and it is one of the things that I have hated the most about myself for forever. But everything is very my emotions are very reachable. Like I can tell how I feel about a thing when it's happening. Not everybody is like that. And whether it's uh a learned behavior or just like the you're just not a person that feels that big, it's a kind of equalizer, the the repetition exercises. It's it's a great equalizer. We can all both get down to, oh gosh, these emotions are coming up. I'm finally feeling them because I've stripped away everything else. And that can be really jarring for people. Like Meisner technique, like is equal parts like so liberating, but also just like the most terrifying and it can be super dangerous if you're not careful.
JoelYeah, or aware or aware not coach properly.
JennyYeah, it can be like people can take advantage of each other. And like like in every um industry or hobby or pursuit, there's always gonna be a bad actor in there somewhere.
JoelYes. Um I feel very grateful to that. My both both my Meisner experiences have been with you coaching on Measure Island and with Brett Schultz, who also was a very gentle, um, fantastic teacher, also.
JennyYeah, I think that um i I don't know, I don't know Brett. Um heard great things, huge fan. Um but from my my point of view, I I'm so concerned about the people around me that sometimes like in my personal life, I will like take responsibility for other people's feelings, which is a super unhealthy thing. Don't do that. You are not responsible for anybody else's feelings, but it's just the way that I grew up in the situation that I grew up in. I take responsibility for people's feelings. So I naturally am always trying to read the room and read other people. And I think that people who are like that or were raised in that kind of situation are uniquely outfitted to make sure that we don't cross that line, that we don't that we don't damage anybody. Um so it's an in it's a it's a sensitive, it's such a sensitive thing. And if it's in the wrong hands, it can really hurt. But if it's in the right hands, and I'm not saying that I'm the best at this because I am a human and I am flawed deeply. Um, but if it's in a person who actually if it's in the hands of a person who cares about their students as humans, as people, there are some really cool things that can happen. There are some really cool doors that can be opened for people. Like it is watching people do that exercise for the first time is one of my favorite things ever because it's like people realizing they're getting in touch with a thing that they they actively push away all the time. They're getting in touch with the self. And that brings up so many cool, weird, awful, amazing things. And watching somebody realize that in like in Media Res is like the coolest, most uh like I am so honored when people do that. They get to that place in one of my classes.
JoelBeautiful, beautiful.
JennyI mean, it's all we're all for fucking animals with weird ass brains. Yeah. And we tell each other that your brain is wrong all the time. There's so there is always somebody lined up to tell you that you are a piece of shit.
JoelA teacher, a boss, a coworker, uh just any anybody. Anybody.
JennyBut when we open up a safe space where people can just exist, and that's what improv is. It's just ex existing in a scenario, in an environment, what have you. When we open ourselves up like that, uh the things that make people the coolest, the weirdest, the funniest, it's uh it's able to like come out and and you can have a deeper relationship with yourself. Like I think improv is magic.
Improv as Magic & Reclaiming Childlike Wonder
JoelI think so too. It's absolutely magical. And there's that's why the tight name of the podcast is what it is, the joy of improv. Yeah. So much joy to be found in it and magic.
JennyYeah. Childlike wonder is one of the most underrated, uh, like uh it is almost extinct in certain places.
JoelYeah.
JennyAnd I think that that's why people go to like theme parks and like get really fanatical about like a soccer game. Like that childlike wonder is just being siphoned out of the world systematically. And I think that improv is one of the ways that we can get it back.
JoelYeah, get back in touch with that inner child. Um, I'm curious to hear more about your time in sh after you got to Chicago. Uh, was cutting your teeth in classes. So uh how did you continue your improv education and experience in Chicago?
JennySo I like I said, there's so many opportunities there. There's always something going on. There's always a show, there's always a jam, there's always a group of people that are like, hey, I really want to practice this one particular thing. Do we want to get a group together? Do we want to get a coach? There's a million coaches, and a lot of them are really fucking good and should be like charging people a lot more than they do. But uh in Chicago, the opportunity is just around every corner every corner. Um one of the things that I think that Dad's Garage does really well is like that short form brain. I think that short form players turning into long form players is way easier for than for a long form player to turn into a short form player because of the pattern recognition.
JoelThat resonates a lot because I feel like I lean a narrative and relationship base, and I tend to struggle with the short form like quick joke think thinking it's a different muscle.
JennyIt is a di like it's a different, it's it's a completely different thing. Like improv is improv, but like there are two very different muscles that you are working when you're doing a short form versus a long form. And uh when I was in Chicago, I got the really amazing opportunity to tour with um a group called Mission Improbable, and it is a short form like show uh for college students. And I got to tour around the country just doing short form every single day. And I really do think that that like ability to practice that like pattern recognition really, really uh it expedited, expedited, I guess is a uh word, but like it really expedited my ability to understand long form. Um, so when I came back from touring with Mission Improbable, I was able to step into spaces that I wasn't able to before and like hold my own. Because in short form, you have to figure out what the fuck are we doing? What the fuck is this about? What is the point? You have to figure it out immediately. So I could walk into scenes and immediately have something for us to do, or immediately notice something about my partner and get this thing started. And if you can do that, you are cutting out like two minutes of like valuable stuff for sure. Um, but you can get it's a shorthand, you can get to places that maybe you hadn't been able to before because you've already you have you've recognized the pattern, you have the game, or you know who you are and what you're doing immediately, and then you can explore, you can play. So half of the scene is now yours to play with, yeah, and you get so much further.
JoelYeah, it's like a hack because we taught the the wording for Dad's Garage with the Johnstonian language is platforming, the UCB or whatever is the the base reality.
JennyBase reality.
JoelUm, and so much of that in short form sometimes is already abstracted away. If we if we know the who who what way are really fast, you're right. Then we have the extra time to play.
JennyYeah.
JoelAnd just like live in that that reality.
JennyYeah, and uh it also teaches you to you have to trust this person. You have to trust your partner. You have to. Or this scene is gonna get booed by 18-year-olds who have been drinking illegally, like working as a like a touring improviser to like colleges specifically, you find out real quick what work and what do not work. And they are not shy about telling you. So uh I think that doing short form really set me up for being a better long form player in in the in the long long run.
JoelLong run? Yeah, and in the long term. In the long run.
JennyYou know, speaking is not my forte.
JoelSpeaking's tough. Words are tough.
JennyLike, I hate speaking.
JoelUm you're doing great.
JennyThank you. I mean the validation.
JoelThank you.
JennyUm, but yeah, I think that short form is a an essential skill. And I think I I thank Dad's Grosh for that.
JoelCool. And in Chicago, did you do UCB or or Second City? What'd
Second City vs. IO: Doing Both at Once
Joelyou what'd you do?
JennyOh, is uh I don't think that there's a UCB in Chicago, or at least there wasn't one when I was there. Um I uh mainly was like second city and I.O. And IO is like improv first. Yeah, second city is sketch. Sketch first, yeah. Yeah. And uh like doing those like simultaneously, I think made me better at both.
JoelOoh, interesting.
JennyYeah, because like I was in the conservatory at Second City, and then I would go and I would take classes at IO. And at Second City, you are you are like narrative. What is the joke? How can I take this this very simple idea and heighten it to a Ridiculous degree. And it's very technical. It's very like, what makes this funny? How can I make it funnier? How can I make it actually hit with the audience?
JoelAnd you said that was Second City?
JennySecond City, yeah. Um, it's about like improvising to write a sketch. Yeah. You are circling around ideas and you are trying to find what is what's the funny in this. And also like, how can I comment on the world in a way that is so ridiculous that like it distills my thesis and makes it plainly obvious for the audience. Um, and then going to I.O. and doing like relationships and character. Both of those things are like they're super important to one another. Like finding the joke and also finding a human connection and like base reality for your joke to stand on. Um, so complimentary. Complimentary. I I've been really, really lucky. I've been really lucky that I've gotten to do so many things simultaneously. Some people don't have like they don't get the scholarship or they don't they don't have the time to do uh both at the same time. I really was like That's really cool, right place, right time. That's really cool. Um in my life to really take advantage of the abundance of resources that there are in Chicago.
Baby Wants Candy
JoelUm so at what point in Chicago, so you're doing the classes, um, did you land on the the team Baby Wants Candy?
JennyUm so Baby Wants Candy uh is one of the most amazing groups that I have conned my way onto. I don't know to this day, like every time I walk onto a stage with other Baby Wants Candy performers, I'm like, how the fuck did I fool these people into letting me be on the same stage with them? Because they're all brilliant. They are all so funny and so thoughtful and great performers. They're great actors. Um, so the way it came about was I was on this musical improv team um for uh Mint. So it's like a it was like an improv collective, like there were a bunch of different teams and musical improv nights or something like that. I can't remember, but like I did mint for like a couple of seasons. And just so happened that I am Al Samuels, who is in charge of uh Baby Runs Candy, was in the audience that night. I don't think he really goes to that many mint shows, but it was just like it happened to be like a night that he showed up and he saw me perform. And at the time they were doing a Game of Thrones musical called Thrones exclamation point. It was basically just like, you know, a parody show of Game of Thrones, which was on at the time and was like hugely popular. And it was like during a like really long hiatus between one season and the other. So they were doing this parody show that they had already done in LA. They were looking for a Chicago-based cast. And uh, if you have never seen me, I'm a very short person, very small at the time. I was very blonde, and I kind of fit the Daenerys.
Edinburgh Fringe & Saying Yes to Everything
JoelOh yeah.
JennySo I think that like that combined with the fact that like I I was showing promise in musical improv because I come from a theater background background. I of course I love musicals and am a huge nerd about theater and musicals. Um, I was seen at the right place, right time.
JoelAnd I guess for those listening, uh Baby Wants Candy is a musical improv team. Yes, it is one of the what most well known in the in the country.
JennyIn the country, yeah. They they are truly like if you are in a city, if you are in LA, Chicago, or New York, and you get a chance to go see a baby wants candy show, do it, do it. Do it. Like it is, they are the best at what they do, and they kind of set the standard for musical improv. And they have a very famous alumni list.
JoelOh, it's huge. That were one of my they're one of my inspirations to uh in creating the musical improv classes. Yeah. Big fan of Zach and Jess, our our you know, alumni and performer still on Baby Wants Candy.
JennyOh, yeah. Um Zach who wrote this uh like side uh it was a side quest while we were in Scotland for the uh the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. Um uh one of the cast members had to leave unexpectedly from this other musical that he had writ written with another person um called Voldemort, the teenage like teenage musical, Hogwarts story musical. I can't even remember, but it's like a long, like little after title. Um and I got to play Nagini in in like a Voldemort like teenage angst musical. And one of he is just such a good songwriter, he's an incredible songwriter in Zach Rena. Yes, so so funny. So cool, so funny. Um, and like the Moaning Myrtle song is like basically a Britney Spears like like takedown. It and the person who was moaning myrtle in in that stage production was just like a fucking incredible vocalist. So like getting to perform in that during the day and then getting to do the Game of Thrones musical at night. Wow, what a fun like that was a fun month and a half, like it was an incredible month and a half.
JoelYeah. Dream that sounds so lovely.
JennyIt was so fun, it was so fun. But any anywho, um meant to either the um Yeah, and so I I was contacted by Al Samuels because he knew um somebody through somebody, and they just happened to have my information. Um, and he talked to me about this Game of Thrones musical, and I was like, um, yes, yes, whatever I need to do, I will quit this nine to five job. I will go, I will do this. And so I ended up getting to go on a trip to Australia because their their normal Daenerys wasn't available for the Australian Fringe Festival, which is like the other huge fringe festival for the Southern Hemisphere. It's in Adelaide, Australia, and I was like, of yes, of course I want to go to Australia. What are you talking about? Like, this is incredible. Um, so I got to go uh with them to Australia, as well as like starting to train with them as baby once can be. Like it just kind of coincided. Um again, like I am an extremely lucky person. I am just I don't know. I do not know how I end up being in the right place at the right time so many times in a row. I am going to be in the right place at the wrong time at some point, and I am probably going to like fall off a cliff or something. But hey, I've had a pretty okay run.
JoelUm, Jenny, I've seen you perform. You're incredible.
JennyOh, you're very sweet.
JoelGive yourself some credit. Yeah, you you're you're we're literally talking about how much you love improv, how studious you are, how many classes you've taken simultaneously.
JennyI am a whole ass person. You're a whole ass person. Get real passionate about the things I am passionate about, and I want to be an expert in them.
JoelAnd that shows on stage. The the care that you're talking about, um, when for like when we were talking about Meisner, the care and listening, the attentiveness to your scene partners, that shows on stage.
JennyI love this. I love improv. It is the one through line in my entire life. I have said yes to so many weird jobs and so many weird things, like, and improv gave me that bravery to say yes. Because even if even if it's gonna be the worst experience I ever have, it's still experience. And of course I'm gonna say yes because I need it. I need that, I need to learn it. Um, and I don't think if I hadn't been stuck in that theater class, I don't think I would have taken the big swings that I have taken in my life. And those are the times that like something really cool has happened because I just was like, yes.
Takeaways for Musical Improvisers
JoelFrom your time on Baby Wants Candy and training with them and doing different musical improv shows. Um what are some of the biggest takeaways for musical improv in general, like for musical improv students or for people who want to do it? Uh I myself, as a as a musical improv teacher, I I I can talk about musical improv.
JennyForever.
JoelForever.
JennyIt's so fun.
JoelUm, but want to get to you, but what are some of your biggest takeaways you think that help make musical improvisers successful on stage?
JennyI think that first and foremost, as an improviser, just in general, you are a student of the world. You need to know pop culture. You need to know, uh, you need to know like key movies, you need to know all of the cultural touchstones that uh that show up in in our daily lives. Like, you need to know about musical theater. You need to become a student of culture. And I think that one of the things that like I have walked away with, not walked away, but like one of the most important things to me as a musical improviser is knowing the history of the musical, because there are certain things that happen for certain reasons, and there are certain uh numbers that help you get to the next story point. And if you don't know like the general structure of a musical, you're gonna end up meandering for a little while. You're not gonna get to do the big like number at the end. So having like cultural, like uh sorry, I keep hitting this thing. Um having those those like stereotypes or archetypes or tropes available to you in the back of your like your pop cultural Rolodex.
JoelYeah.
JennyUm half of your audience does not know what that is. They've never seen a Rolodex. They're like, is that a watch? Um, but uh all of that stuff that you can flip through in your brain and be like, okay, so this kind of looks like uh the Little Mermaid. Now I can use the Little Mermaid as a map.
JoelAs a yep.
JennyAnd I can run this through the lens of The Little Mermaid. I can do those big numbers like Kiss the Girl. I can do those uh those big like villain types with their henchmen. Um because culture has made a roadmap for me. It's all about like, you know, taking the brilliant ideas of other people and smashing them together into something new. Um, but becoming a student of pop culture is every improviser's job.
Song Structure & Why You Sing
JoelI l I love that. Thank you for saying that. Because I feel validated in what I tell my students in because in intermediate we start to tackle narrative and story structure with musicals. And um, I actually have assigned homework.
JennyYeah.
JoelAnd it is educating yourselves on musicals.
JennyThere are different types of musicals, there are different types of numbers in each one of these musicals, and if you have those like references in your back pocket, again, you get to go way further than if you were trying to figure it out like in the moment. So that number one. Number two is a song structure. You gotta know what a chorus is, you gotta know what a bridge is, you gotta know uh song types. Like, is it a hero song? Is it an I want song? Is this um peas in a pod song? Like, you need to know the different types of songs and their structures, as well as just like plain song structure. Um, and you all need to agree on it.
JoelUm like verse chorus, verse chorus, bridge chorus, and yeah.
JennyUh whether that's something that you decide beforehand or you are doing on stage, you all need to agree that this is the chorus because you're gonna come back to it. Um and I think the final thing is like five uh you sing because talking won't work. You uh will start singing a song because you no longer can use just plain old talking to express how you feel in a moment. So you don't just start a song to start a song. There has to be some sort of happening, some impetus, some feeling to make that song happen, or the audience will not give a flying fuck.
Big Emotion Over Bits
JoelThat is probably one of the hardest parts of the intermediate class, is because um people are coming to class with mixed backgrounds of various backgrounds, and some don't have a musical theater background, some do. Um, but also a lot of people are coming from regular improv energy.
JennyYeah.
JoelAnd so sometimes those scenes are get very jokey and very classic improv y.
JennyYeah, we're all doing bits.
JoelWe're all doing bits, and we're missing that big emotion. We need a big emotion so we can find a good song to sing about.
JennyYeah, yeah. And I think that um, like that go uh that goes all the way back to Meisner is like feeling something real and true. If you don't feel it, the audience does not feel it. Like, that's why certain performers are just like so incredible to watch. They might not be the funniest, they might not be the smartest, but they are enjoying what they are doing so much that the audience is just like, I enjoy them too. I am watching them because they are having the most fun. And Meisner takes that like that pretense off of you so you can actually listen and actually have fun, actually feel the emotion that you're feeling so you can take the audience along with you. They want to trust you. Audiences are not dumb, they want to go along with you. So, like, instead of I'm gonna, I'm just gonna keep talking about this thing, they know that that you feel something. So then you start singing. But you have to feel that thing in order for them to believe you.
JoelYeah. Another another Meisner plug. It is essential.
JennyIt is essential. I I mean, like that is the type of play that I like doing. I know that a lot of other people attack it way, way differently. But as a person who comes from a theater and like storytelling background, I feel like Meisner is step number one. Yeah. Like after like learning yes and and no butt and all of those things.
JoelWow, wow, wow. That's big. That's huge.
JennyI think it's fundamental.
JoelUm, thanks for chatting about musical improv. I love that.
JennySure. Anytime.
JoelUm, I so so you're in Chicago, baby wants candy. How do you find your way back to Atlanta?
Returning to Atlanta
JennyOh, uh, I mean, something really bad personally happens.
JoelOkay.
JennyAnd I'm from here. So I came back to Atlanta to kind of like regroup. Yeah. Um, and I've I lived here for so long before that it just kind of was like, well, yeah, I'm gonna go be near my family, and um I'm just gonna like rethink things because I had also reached like I had also accomplished the goals that I set for myself when I moved to Chicago, which was like, I wanna, I wanna like tour, I wanna, I wanna be paid for improv. I want to make a career out of improv, musical improv. I want to be a performer, and I had did those things. And I if anybody is lucky enough to achieve their dreams, they will tell you, oh my god, what happens after? I did the thing I set out to do, and that's what I was living for. Like I was living to get this dream, and then when you get that dream, what next? Nobody tells you. And it is kind of one of the most like harrowing feelings. You are just like nobody tells you about this part. Either you keep you make a new goal, or you have a conversation with yourself. Is this something that I can continue want wanting to do? And at the time, it was not I wasn't in that place anymore. It had become a job.
JoelOh, I see.
JennyAnd I never wanted it to become a job. So in order to love it again, I had to walk away from it.
JoelYeah. I mean, breaks are so natural, important. Yeah, common.
JennyImprov is about life, and if you don't live life, you have nothing to pull from. Yeah, yeah. So when I came back, uh I I took like a regular like nine to five, like I was a technical project manager at Cricut Wireless. Like it was a tech job. I did I did my nine to five, um, and kind of just was like uh without this thing that I have made my personality at this point, like improv, without this thing, who am I? What am I? So I took a few years trying to figure that out. Yeah, yeah.
JoelAnd at what at some point you did, and you came back to improv in Atlanta and landed at Village Theater,
Village Theater
Joelright?
JennyYeah. Um, so uh Village at the time was the artistic director was uh Ryan Archibald. And Ryan Archibald is from the IO community in Chicago. Um one of my mentors in Chicago was Adle Raffai, and they were uh they knew each other, they played in the same circles, like I was like, hey, I'm headed back to Atlanta. What do you think? Where like do I stay in Atlanta? Do I go somewhere else? What am I doing? Like, just basically like, do you have any advice for like continuing improv in Atlanta? Because it had changed. It changes. Um, and when you're not looking, like the community will like shape themselves and adapt and morph into something that like you may not immediately recognize. So it was like really starting in a new city, and so I I asked um Adil about like what he would do, and he was like, actually, this person I know is down there as an artistic director. Let me introduce you. So I got introduced um through one of my teachers and mentors in Chicago to Ryan Archibald. And so I got to come into already like a pre-made community.
JoelCool.
JennyBecause at the time, like village was like super highly structured. It had like house teams, it had mainstage shows, it had flagship shows. So I really got to walk into a pre-made something and kind of pick up in more of a teaching mentorship capacity than I'd ever been in before.
JoelAwesome. And um at this point, so you started teaching. So let's let's let's switch on to teaching. What was that experience like starting to teach? And what were your summer favorite favorite parts about teaching? What was hard about teaching?
The Joy of Teaching & the Magic of a 101 Class
JennyUm, everything's hard about teaching. Um it's also one of the most rewarding things ever. That is so cliche. I love it. Um there it was a time where I was like, I think I just like want to teach people. I don't even want to do shows because I just want to teach. Um, but when I came into uh Came back to Atlanta. I was an older, uh, maybe wiser improviser than uh when I left. I was a completely different person because I had spent like I guess 10 years just like outside doing life, doing different things. And I came back with a completely different like mindset around improv and around just like how to approach my life. So I felt like even though I had TA'd and taught classes before, this is when I was like, no, I'm actually like, I am highly qualified, not highly, but like I am qualified to be teaching in a like more permanent way. Um so I started teaching their 101s and their level threes. And 101 is like my favorite thing to teach because it's the it's the moment where people realize that they're weird is what makes them good at stuff. Like they realize, oh, if I trust my brain, if I trust my instincts, if I trust my gut feeling, then I am going to make the audience laugh, or they're going to feel something, or I'm gonna support a partner way better than I was before. So watching people realize that the thing that they just like don't trust about themselves, like their brains, like their their impulses, their gut feelings are actually the things that make them really good at something. That spark inside somebody is just I feel like a dementor and I am siphoning off the joy from that person because watching it is just one of the most amazing things. Watching somebody realize that they're funny, that they did, they did something really like really cool and interesting. They made a choice that maybe nobody else would have made. Watching them realize that about themselves and like really start to like flex and try out different things, start experimenting, start like trying different characters or different attacks at uh environments or something, like watching them figure themselves out is the coolest. Yeah, it's the coolest thing I ever watched. Yeah. And 101 is where a lot of that happens, especially if it's a person who is not like from theater, they are just like, I want to speak better in front of my my boss at work. Uh, those those types of people who have just like they're coming in because they're like, I I don't know how to do like public speaking. I don't know what to do. Um, watching them come in and like realize that they're like, oh, nope, none of these performers are different from me.
JoelYeah.
JennyThey're also all figuring it out. They just trust themselves that they will figure it out and then start to trust themselves is so cool.
JoelIt's so cool. It's it's all that's also one of my favorite parts of teaching, also, is witnessing students become more confident week after week, coming out of their show. Yes, the friendships, going to gym.
JennyOh my God. So, so cool watching like a group of students previously had no idea who each other uh was. They didn't run in the same circles, probably wouldn't run in the same circles in real life. I say real life, but like in the outside. Um, they find that the things that make them weird connect them to other people. It is so cool. Like I still talk to some of my very first students and they hang out. They hang out. Like it's the coolest.
JoelI love how I love when uh a class group chat from like three years ago just blows up. Yeah, just like, hey, anyone doing this, or like, hey, there's this or we're plugging shows or like whatever the case is, who's going to a jam? Love that.
JennyLove that because all of this it comes back to that it joy. It comes back to joy and like being known and knowing and feeling seen, heard, and accepted. Yeah, like uh, it's the coolest thing. It's the coolest thing to watch as a teacher. So that's why like anytime a 101 was up for grabs, I was like, me, give it to me. I want that. I want that thing right now. Um, because it's watching people learning to love themselves.
JoelYeah. Um, so you're you're teaching at village. Where does your improv journey go from there?
The Pandemic, the Changed Landscape & Atlanta's Ceiling
JennySo it kind of stays in village for a while, but then the pandemic happened and uh, you know, theaters all across the country kind of like blew up, like imploded uh for a multitude of different reasons. Um I kind of took a step back and have just been very uh selective about performing. Um I got a really cool job after like everything started opening up and I really focused on my job because I'm a whole ass person again. Um so right now I'm just kind of uh like on the periphery of the improv scene. And you know, I I miss doing it all the all of the time. Um, but I am very lucky that I have a few people that like consistently ask me to do a show or to coach a thing or uh what have you. I've gotten to like reap the benefits of so many hours being put in. Yeah. Um, but the I and we've talked about this before, the landscape has changed quite a bit. It is very hard to break into now.
JoelYeah, if you it's uh breaks are like as we said, are sometimes needed. Yeah. Um and take them if you feel it, if you're feeling burnt out. Um but coming back in can is can be hard again.
JennyIt's daunting.
JoelYeah, it's daunting.
JennyA lot of new faces, venues are different, um like jams are different, and going back into that can be a little bit nerve-wracking.
Joel100%.
JennySo I've just been kind of on the periphery for a little while, but I might be moving to Chicago, so when I go back to Chicago, it's much more like abundant and uh there are a lot more opportunities there to kind of dip your toe back into it. There's a lot of like it's already built.
JoelYeah.
JennyWe don't have to build anything.
JoelThere's something almost every day, and you'll be able to plug back in. Yeah.
JennyYes, way, way, still have connections and friends there.
JoelYeah. Okay.
JennyUm my hope for Atlanta is that it becomes easier, it becomes more accessible, it becomes more uh community focused uh in the future.
What a More Accessible Atlanta Scene Could Look Like
JoelWhat do you think that looks like? More community focused and accessible.
JennyI think that that means diversifying the playing field. I think that means that there's gotta be another theater because like when the village was a thing, like if you weren't at this one theater, you were at another theater. And you had a place to kind of go. You had a place to call like your base, your home base. You might work at both of those like bigger theaters, but you always had something to kind of go back to and plug into. Um, you had a group of pre-made friends, yeah. Um, but in recent years, like there haven't been like any other large uh places to play. So everything is like in random spots. It takes a lot of work on the planner's part to make happen. Um, there are a lot of like little theaters that are still trying to kind of like build themselves up, but it's a hard, it's hard work. It's hard, yeah. So I'm hoping that in the future that some of those like smaller theaters or uh like anybody gets the like I don't know, bug in their ear to like build another thing. I really hope that they do.
JoelI really hope it's needed. It's needed.
JennyIt's needed because it's it's very it's hard to do improv in Atlanta.
JoelIt's hard. It is, yeah. There seems to be this ceiling, um, and it's come up multiple times. You take the classes, and then where do you go? You go. Like, yeah, what do you do? You just hit the ceiling and then you kind of like meander off and move on.
JennyYeah.
JoelAnd if you want to keep the scene growing, there has to be a place. There's gotta be places to go and keep and keep active.
JennyYeah, you can't like if there's only one garden, things will only grow in that one garden.
JoelYeah, and especially if those gardens um limit the access to the stage. Yeah.
JennyAnd I understand that they are a theater that needs to make money. And I understand that people have spent their lives building it, but improv is not a just is not just about like getting your yucks on stage.
JoelYeah.
JennyLike I said, I think that it's magic and it can create connection where there wasn't. And I think that it allows people to feel okay, which is one of the best things we can do nowadays. Like getting a few hours to feel like, oh, yeah. My brain's okay. I'm okay. Like I I am loved, I am seen, I I have a place to go exp like have fun and play. Um I think that if more accessibility isn't given or granted, I think that uh you're just setting up the community to die.
JoelYeah.
JennyLike when you die, essentially. You're not creating legacy, you're not creating opportunities, you're not creating uh the like training ground. You're being uh you're being elite elitist, you're being very, very uh isolating, which is not what improv is about at all. Improv is about we, not me.
Being a Woman in Improv: A Hard Road
JoelYeah. Speaking of community accessibility, uh improv, I think it's I've heard this in other cities too from like listening to other improv podcasts. Um historically has been a boys' club for a lot of a lot of the time. Yeah. I think I think there are small changes being made. I think it's I think it's uh growing and getting getting better.
JennyYeah.
JoelUm can you speak to the women's accessibility in improv and stage and um your your experience as a woman in the improv community, whatever that means to you?
JennyYeah. Um it is It's it's gotten it is so much easier now to be a woman in improv than ever before. Um I see so many incredible female improvisers start like owning their their space and their their self and owning the room, shows, producing shows, and I think it's gonna take a long time to become equal. Um just because of the numbers game. Like in Atlanta, it's very hard like for anybody to produce a show, like let alone you know, making it like a smaller category. Um so much of the world has been built around men and how how men see the world and how men operate in the world. Like even doctors. Like doctors is a great, like, it's kind of a one-to-one with improv. It's a weird thing to say, but it's like pretty, it's pretty transferable. Women haven't been studied by the scientific community. Stuff happens, and I have literally had a doctor say, Well, that's just how it is. When I feel awful, they're just like, that's just being a woman. And I don't accept that. And I think the fact that more and more women are saying, I don't accept this boys' club. I'm gonna improvise like a woman. I'm gonna improvise like how I am. And I think that the sooner that we get over like uh men and women, that makes it so much easier for other people. Other uh like subsets of of culture, subcultures
The Old Boys' Club & Generational Divides
Jennycan really own the space and truly become accepted and equal as they should have always been. Um I think in my personal experience it's been a hard, a hard road. I think as a woman, you have had to swallow a lot of bitter pills. Yeah, you have to keep down a lot because people are going to make a assumption about you before you even walk out on stage. If they see that you are a part of an improv troupe and nine of the ten are men, they are going to make assumptions about you. And I feel for like earlier generations of women, I had it a lot easier than them. They had to improvise like one of the boys. Yeah. They had to infiltrate the boys' culture. And even though like that's I'm so happy that they survived and that like they paved the way for us, I think sometimes it's hard for maybe older generations of female improvisers to support younger female improvisers because they are still in this boys' club mindset. They are they're improvising like dudes. They are making they are making choices and making judgment calls about other women like a man would.
JoelBecause they got in.
JennyThey got in doing that.
JoelYeah.
JennyAnd they they had to deal with so much bullshit in order to not be like, well, one of the guys must be like fucking her or something. Um, they had to be twice as funny, they had to be uh twice as quick. They had to improvise circles around their peers, male peers, because if they didn't, they wouldn't, they wouldn't get in the stage time. Um so I feel like there's this older generation of females that sometimes it's hard for them to accept younger female improvisers um and support them. And unintentionally, they kind of perpetuate the boys' club because they had it so fucking hard. They had to fight so hard to get stage time. And I feel I feel like this is this is just a uh like older generation versus younger generation. They're like, I had it hard, so you have to have it hard. And I hate that mentality. I hate it as well because it's a it's a stagnant mentality. It's not growth, it's not it's not progressive progressive.
JoelIt's not yeah, instead of helping the younger generation making it easier for them, making it easy for them, it actively makes it harder.
JennyAnd alienates them. And like you have to be a tough person to get through that. I was uh when I was a younger girl in her 20s, I made a lot of like fucking mistakes because I thought that I had to. And eventually I started like feeling put in just the most uncomfortable situations on purpose. And being like, well, there was like there's no uh other way that I would be able to do this thing that makes me so happy, except for the to like accept this.
JoelYeah, this ugly part of it.
JennyThis ugly part of it. And um without like saying anything that's like super detailed or personal, I felt like an object. I felt like a prop a lot when I was a younger female. And I felt like I almost had to uh remove things, characteristics that made me female or made me look feminine in order to gain respect. So, like if I would wear like a tight-fitting t-shirt, I would not be like looked at as a fellow improviser, I would be looked at as a female improviser. And that's the first thing they see. Those are the judgments that they're making. I started wearing baggier clothes. I cut my hair like super short because I didn't want like as women, like our hair is a part of like our like whole being, like the glory, the femininity. And like I buzzed my head because I didn't want to be perceived as being on a stage because I was cute or a token woman. I wanted to be taken seriously as an improviser, so I started wearing like boyish clothes or like traditionally boyish clothes. I started like I never like wore like makeup or cute things when I was on stage because I wanted to be, I wanted to be respected as an improviser. Um nowadays, I I would encourage like a younger me to be like, girl, you do you. Yeah, go up there and improvise like you. Don't improvise like all of these dudes because you think that that's what you have to do.
JoelAnd that that's advice you'd give to uh a younger me. Yeah, okay. And today. And today, a woman improviser new.
JennyAnd I think that there is just so much more opp like I love that there is so much more opportunity for females in improv nowadays, or any like minority in improv nowadays, because like the people that came before. But I think that there's so much more that we could do to make this a safe art form.
JoelWhat do you think we can do as a community to make it a safe more p females in leadership? More f yeah, more females in leadership.
JennyI think females in leadership, more female producers, more female directors, putting uh uh females or uh any other uh subculture in charge of the decision making inherently is going to open the doors wide. Like it is going to throw open every opportunity as long as we don't like have that mentality of I suffered, so you have to suffer. If we can look at younger generations as people who need our help, I think that like we could skyrocket uh uh in progression. Like we could really change the face of comedy and improv. And I think that like everything that happened around the pandemic with like all of the the like in I.O. and and in Second City, all of those like really hard like truths that everybody had to like hear and the crumbling of certain uh paradigms, like All of that was so fucking hard for everybody involved. But the people who are brave enough to make that happen had like they shaved 50 years off of the journey for us. And I think that that like I don't want another pandemic to happen or any other like huge like mass cullings to happen or any other large happening. I think that we just need to walk into these rooms and say, I'm not gonna let it stand. I'm not gonna stand for the small aggressions. I'm not going to I'm not gonna perpetuate the the boys' club mentality. And putting that into your everyday decisions will keep it from being like this thing where everything boils and boils and boils and then it blows up. I don't think we need to do that anymore because we I I feel like we've we've done that. We have done that a few times in the past. I think that having females in leadership or other uh underrepresented uh cultures in leadership and having them have a growth mentality and a let's make this easier uh approach to like any opportunities or like stage time, etc. Making the room safe for those people to be in is it's so easy and so hard, you know? But like making the concerted effort, I think is just gonna make improv the the magical, like safe place that we all know it can be. It's just when you think of like, oh man, well I had it so bad, and then let that color all of your decisions, it's just it's you are a part of the problem then.
What Men Can Do to Help
JoelWhat do you think that men can do to support and help this mission? What how can what's men's role?
JennyListening. Listen. Don't talk, listen. Listen more than you talk. Um make sure that you have female representation in your leadership. Making sure that you are taking into account that people might be operating because they think they have to be operating in that way. I think just like making yourself aware of any biases that you might just have and you just don't realize that you have, because we all have them. Being honest with yourself, being honest with others, and listen.
JoelYeah.
JennyYeah.
JoelUm, thank you so much.
JennyYeah. I hope that I said something good.
JoelYou did. You did. Thank you so much. Uh, I love having that conversation. Uh it's something that's on my mind as an educator, as a community member, who I want to see the scene um stay diverse and colorful and beautiful and inclusive of everybody. And I know there's a few pain points.
JennyThere's absolutely pain points, and there's going to be decisions made that not everybody's going to agree with, and like maybe some opportunities will be missed out on by like more traditional looking improvisers. But that is a part of growth.
JoelYeah.
JennyThat's a part of it.
JoelYeah.
JennyAnd even though like it's going to be painful for certain people, it's important. Just make sure you're on the right side
Community!
Jennyof history, baby.
JoelYeah, let's do it. Let's be on the right side of history and building the community. Do you have anything on your mind or heart, any topics you want to touch on for improv to share with the Atlanta community?
JennyUm, be open to one another. Don't don't make assumptions.
JoelDon't uh make assumptions about like the person you're performing with.
JennyThe perfor uh I mean like unless you're doing Meisner, which is uh not working with one person just because they are a part of like a theater. Okay. Or not a part of a theater.
JoelYeah. Like expanding your horizon.
JennyWe all want to do the same thing. So just make sure that you're not like trying to make those decisions uh for the for the community of you you're in, you're cool, you're not cool. Like go to jams.
JoelYeah, stay open and connect. Go to jams. Yeah.
JennyUm, I I need to be better about that. Yeah, but like you have to be a part of the community in order to grow the community.
JoelOh, love that. Say that again. So let's snap.
JennyOh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you have to be a part of the community to grow the community.
JoelOh, I love that. Let me write that down. Oh, that's beautiful. Uh we uh we always end the episode with a few hot seat
Hot Seat!
Joelquestions.
JennyOh god.
JoelSo feel free to click, you're gonna you're gonna click into the hot seat. There's a seatbelt right there. If you could just uh break thing over your stuck. Uh I hate it when it does. If you just give it a yellow seatbelt.
JennyOkay, yeah.
JoelThere we go. Okay, thank you so much. Okay. You're so welcome. Jenny Jenny's locked into the hot seat. Um, and the this section always has a has a jingle. And it goes, and it goes something like this. Get in in the hot seat with Jenny. That's what it is.
JennyOh, that's very much like Delilah at night. Is it Delilah?
JoelIs that a real show?
JennyYeah.
JoelWhat is that?
JennyOh, it's like an advice show from like late night FM radio.
JoelOkay. Yeah. Ooh. You gotta look up Delilah. I gotta look up Delilah.
JennyIt is, it is a uh man, it is a treasure trove of memories for me. Just like listening to the radio, listening to Delilah at night.
JoelYou know what? This sounds familiar.
JennyYou probably are aware of it without knowing you're aware of it.
JoelYeah. I feel like okay, that's come up in the past. Well, that's the the hot seat jingle is similar to Delilah's.
JennyYeah.
JoelUm, and the first question I have for you is do you have any go-to environment work in a scene or some of your favorite environment work things to do? Miming or whatever the case is.
JennyOh my god, I need to know where every table is. I need to know where every chair is. I cannot drop a glass. Do not put glass down in space. Don't like throw your hand back like you're you're drinking, but like miss your mouth.
JoelYeah. Just dumping things on your face. Dumping things on your face.
JennyStop um uh pointing your finger and saying it's a gun. That's not a gun, that's your finger. Also, stop putting your hand up to your ear like it's a phone. That is not a phone, that's a banana. Like, unless you want to speak with a banana, but even like those little things are so they are gonna make you look so fucking professional and cool. Like the audience is gonna be like, oh my god, yes, there was a table there. That person is a genius, and all you had to do is remember where a table was.
JoelYeah, and if you put that glass down on that table and then pick it back up a minute or two later. Oh my god.
JennyMy god.
JoelYou're gonna blow people's minds.
JennyYou're an artist. Just remember where shit is. Stop walking through tables, please.
JoelI love that. I I I do feel we don't talk about physicality enough. Oh my god, it's another pantomiming, pantomiming in general.
JennyIt's another way to tell the story. It's just another way to tell your story. Tell people who you are, who your character is. Like it is just another source of information for the audience.
JoelYeah. So um, do you have any when you start a scene, do you have any go-to physical ones? Or like you're just saying you just love making making note of where everything is in the box.
JennyUm, I I I love uh like I love going to a fridge.
JoelClassic. Love going to a fridge.
JennyUm, I love making a sandwich because you can like, you know, spin the the bread um to like open up the bread bag, set it down. Um where do you think it's so intricate?
JoelYeah, there's all these little people keep it in the fridge.
JennyWhat kind of person keeps it in the fridge? What kind of person keeps it in the cupboard? What person just has it laying out on the counter? Those are three different people.
JoelI'm a counter, I'm a counter loaf guy.
JennyWe uh Mark, my um my fiance husband, we've been together forever. I don't know. Um uh he keeps bread in the fridge, and that is something I have never done. I've never I it was always on the counter. That's when I was a kid. Like it was always on the counter. Um so like those are different, like those are different people.
JoelWow, different households, different upbringings.
JennyYeah, yeah.
JoelThat says a lot.
JennySo like the way that you interact with a bread bag can say so many different things about you. So like and also looking into the fridge and not knowing what you want is so universally relatable.
JoelSo universally relatable. And I love when people milk it. I love doing uh like a hesitation, right? Thinking, and I love moving things around to get to the city.
JennyClosing it and then coming back to it. Ugh.
JoelSo good.
JennyThat or like a major computer, like I'm on a spaceship, because I love sci-fi.
JoelOh, like a spaceship. There's like there's not there's nozzles, knobs, yeah, there's yeah, buttons all over the place.
JennyYeah, and I love sci-fi. I love it so much. So anything that's like hyper mundane or sci-fi.
JoelUm, the whole the full spectrum.
JennyYes, yes.
JoelUm, do you have any favorite characters you love to play?
JennyYes. So I have this character that I've done a few like shows as. His name is Mort Gilfberg.
JoelMort Gilfberg.
JennyYeah, and he's super short. Um, and you can call him Le Pete Le Petite Mort if you want. Ayy. Um he likes to print out American Legion jokes on paper and bring them with him and read them before hosting anything.
JoelWow, this is really this is a specific character.
JennyIt is. He is my favorite like character. Like Mort Gilfberg is one of the most like being an old man is one of my favorite things to do.
JoelOkay.
JennyLike being an old guy. Um, especially an old man that's like down with the kids.
JoelAn old man that's down with the kids.
JennyHe just he just wants to joke around and and hang out with the cool kids.
JoelOh, that sounds like a funny character.
JennyIt's my favorite.
JoelIt's so cool that you have a name for that archetype.
JennyYeah, it it just was like a thing that I kept like doing and coming back to. And then there was a show where I had the opportunity to like play a character that like introduced the show and was like a host. And so he just became like this full uh like boca retone grandpa that just wanted to hang out with the cool kids.
JoelI love it, love it. Um, do you have any advice for new improvisers?
JennyDo everything. Go everywhere, see every show. Even watching shows makes you a better improviser. Like, I'm old and anything at a after 8 p.m., I'm like, God, no, I can't.
JoelYeah, and it's hard.
JennyBut when you're first start oh, sorry.
JoelYou're good.
JennyWhen you're first starting out, it is one of the most important things. Immerse yourself in it. Go to every jam, go to every show, get to know everybody, and find the place and the type of imp like improv that you like and just go balls to the wall. Go hog on it. Like immerse yourself because it's only gonna make you better and it's only gonna become more and more fun.
JoelI love that advice. Thank you so much. Um, okay, last one.
JennyAll right.
JoelAny advice for teaching improv for teachers in the community? How do you how to become a better teacher?
JennyUm reminding each person what is good about what they're doing. Because so often we get rejected or we get like criticized, especially people who are drawn to improv because they might be a little bit like they're the oddballs. Reminding that person of what they do well is always gonna buy you so much like mileage for when you give them a note.
JoelYeah.
JennyReminding them like, hey, I'm gonna enforce this thing that I think you do really, really well. Or I think that you've got like you you think in a way that I don't, and that's wonderful. Reminding them what makes them good will make them keep going.
JoelYeah.
JennyEven if you've got like a ton of notes. Remembering that they are a person who needs that encouragement when they're first trying something, because you're never gonna be good at it.
JoelYeah.
JennyYou are never good at it when you first start. Unless you are a freak like Mark Kendall, you are never going to be amazing at improv when you first start. You're always gonna be bad.
JoelYeah, it's so true. It takes time.
JennyIt takes time. And if you remind people why they they should keep doing it, they'll keep doing it.
JoelYeah. Just lifting up students that um almost every chance you get, and just highlighting the things they do well.
JennyAnd highlighting different things that they do well. Because like anybody could say that was a really funny choice. But if you're actually watching them, being like, I loved the the detail that you put into opening that bread bag.
JoelYeah.
JennyLike they're gonna remember that.
JoelYes, specific.
JennySpecific. They're gonna remember that and they're gonna know you mean it because you watch them. You are paying attention to them. Like just giving them that like, oh, this person cares about me enough to watch my performance in a detail.
JoelThat hits on something that I believe in so much because as a teacher, um, I I can understand when a teacher is like checked out and you're just going to collect the paycheck. Cool. You can feel that energy. This the class can feel it. Um, but to be a great teacher takes so much time and energy and intentionality because of that focused listening that needs to take place in order to keep them going. Yeah. Uh and it's so um needed. It's needed. And you're right, because when I'm taking notes during class, every scene, I'm looking for things that stand out, specific highlighted moments.
JennyLike that thing that you were doing, you can do more of that if you do less of this.
JoelYes.
JennyUm and it just like reminding people that they are good.
JoelYeah.
JennyAnd that they are not wrong and they are not bad. Yeah, so good. I mean, like, I grew up being like told I was dumb. Like every day I was told I was stupid. And one time a teacher said, Wow, you're pretty smart. You you know a lot about this thing, you're really good at that. It made it made me want to do that thing all the time and become the best at it. And because I spent so much time doing it, I did become really good at it.
JoelWow.
JennyAnd it was just that one teacher saying one thing.
JoelYeah.
JennyIt changed a whole mindset that I had. I always walked into a room and thought I was the dumbest person in the room. And then, like that teacher said, Hey, no, you actually have you're you're pretty smart. It oh like I was able to do so much more because I was like not telling myself I was gonna fuck up.
JoelI love that. And that's something too that is important for teachers to do. That is also something community members can do. Something something I love that I'll say to anyone listening who's not a teacher if you're at a jam, if you're a new improviser or veteran, doesn't matter.
JennyFucking notice people.
JoelIf you notice people and then you go up to them after they're sending be like, hey, I loved that thing you did, was stood out to me, it was so cool. Yeah, do that. Say that, say that thing.
JennyLike, care about each other.
JoelYes, lift each other up.
JennyYou're gonna face so much judgment, you're gonna face so much judgment in this art form. Yeah, like everybody's got an opinion, and since there's no one way to do it, those opinions are going to vary wildly and contradict each other.
JoelYes.
JennySo the less time that we like just silently judge each other, and the more time that we take a chance and verbally like recognize something good about another person, that makes it a butterfly effect.
JoelYeah. Yeah. Thank you, Jenny. Jenny, I think I feel like we're good. How do you feel?
Closing Thoughts & Goodbye
JennyI feel good. I feel like a blur. Um, hopefully, I said something not stupid or uh Jenny.
JoelThis was fantastic.
JennyOkay, because I I'm like, I know that I am older and I just want to make sure that I am not alienating anybody. No, because this art form is for everybody.
JoelIt's truly for everyone. Everyone. And I feel like what you've shared today will resonate with improvisers of all levels and is such valuable and informative stuff.
JennyI hope so. And if you are ever like out and about and you happen to see me, I'm a recluse, like I'm a cryptid. I'm not out and about that much. But if you ever do, um, like come talk to me. Yeah, come talk to me because I I love this stuff, and I want everyone to have the best time doing it.
JoelThank you so much, Jenny, for being here on the podcast. Uh, thank you to all the listeners for tuning in for another episode of the Joy of Improv Podcast. And we're we're done, we're signing off.
JennyDelilah.
JoelDelila. See you next time, everybody. Bye. If you are enjoying the podcast and you want to support and keep this podcast going, you can support in one of two ways. You can leave a five-star review. And if you do, please leave an improv topic that you want us to discuss or perhaps a question for a future guest. Another way to support the podcast is to give a monetary contribution on our Ko-Fi page. Anything helps, a dollar, five dollars does not matter. Anything helps in keeping the podcast going, you can find the link to contribute in our Instagram or in the link in the episode description. Thank you so, so much for listening. It means so much that you're here. See you next time and scene. I want to say thank you to Matt Isaacs. Thank you so much, Matt, for editing these episodes. Matt is a talented and kind member of the Atlanta Improv community. If anyone out there has any audio editing or song mixing needs, please reach out to me at joel at the joyofimprov.com. I'll connect you with Matt and get you on your way to getting some clean, fresh audio.