The Joy of Improv

Abel Arias - Part 2

• Joel Camargo • Season 1 • Episode 4

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 50:48

Send us Fan Mail

In part two, Abel and I pick up right where we left off and go even deeper into the craft and philosophy of improv. We talk about why improvisers should stop serving the tools and start letting the tools serve them, and why space work is one of the most powerful and underused skills in the art form.

Abel shares the grilled cheese philosophy from the movie Chef and how it captures everything he believes about staying present on stage — nothing else matters but the thing right in front of you. We get into how curiosity and acceptance form the constant cycle of good scene work, and how those same principles show up in everyday life, from road rage to parenting.

We also dig into community questions about the differences between the LA and Atlanta improv scenes, what LA has that Atlanta doesn't, and tips for staying present without overthinking. Abel closes with a beautiful reminder for new improvisors.

Abel's Plugs:

Abel Brainz Digest (Newsletter/Blog) -
You can email Abel at abelarias81@gmail.com or subscribe via Substack, username is @abelarias

Your Favorite Improv Gym -
Come and get your reps while finding your process. The gym offers different membership for all levels. Whether you want notes or just out to get some reps, Your Favorite Improv Gym is the spot! Email Abel with any questions. 

Follow us on Instagram - @thejoyofimprovpod

Support the podcast with a small tip - https://ko-fi.com/thejoyofimprov

Email any questions or ideas to joel@thejoyofimprov.com

Host: Joel Camargo - Insta - @joelc1225
Audio Editor: Matt Issacs - Insta - @mattisaacs20

Tools Are Here to Serve You, Not the Other Way Around

Abel

I think going back to what you were talking about, and that there's like those two schools of thought, the academics too. I think I think with the academic approach, I think we get too hung up. And I are I know I said this about like being in the annals of platform. I think that's that's that's that's how we fall short in that thinking that we have to serve serve the tools. Yeah. Like, oh, you've got to do you've got to pay your respect to the platform and the you know what I mean, you've got to pay your respect to reincorporation, you have to pay your respect to tilt.

Joel

Like, like I love this character. Whoever this is coming out is fantastic. Is it was that Johnstone?

Abel

Might as well be. And may he rest in peace. And I know that he's been an amazing influence on so many of my friends as well. Um I I couldn't get through Impro. Oh, Impro is tough. Brutal to read, brutal. Um something I'm just so anti, I'm just so anti-rules and blueprints and check boxes that like you know, but yeah, but I get how it helps a lot of folks.

Keith Johnstone's Impro and the Case Against Rules

Joel

There's a lot of beautiful gems in there. There's a lot. So I I have my my copy of Impro with like highlighted, just like lines. Yeah. That's like, oh, that's a great way to word that thing.

Abel

Putting names to faces is fantastic. And also how academic is academia is beneficial is that you can you have that term. You have that term of oh the terminology, yes, like the lingo. In edit, okay, a wipe, uh, a tag out. We all know what a tag out of like the vocabulary, the lingo, like you just said. But um, yeah, I don't think there's enough emphasis in these tools, are here for us. Like if you look at it, like a carpenter, right? We're not like a carpenter's has a hammer, but they're not like but they're not like, hey, can I use like am I using this hammer right? Or can I use this hammer for this, or can I like they're just gonna use the hammer when they need the hammer, right? Use the platform when you need the platform, yeah. Use the tilt when you need the tilt. Tilt all of these things are subjective anyway. You know what I mean? A platform to somebody might mean that you and I are in a scene that we're both mechanics. Whereas like someone else looking at the scene would look at the platform and the fact that it took place at a supermarket. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, absolutely. The platform is literally defined as the reality of the scene. Yeah, it helps build the reality of the supermarkets. So it's like, what aspect of the reality is true? All of those aspects. Maybe I'm gonna focus on the fact that we're in the supermarket, maybe you're gonna focus on the fact that we're mechanics. Neither of them are wrong. Neither

No Mistakes in Improv and Giving Yourself Grace

Abel

of them are wrong.

Joel

I love that. Um, I love the the emphasis of like no mistakes too. I think is a beautiful thing in improv that is so applicable outside of improv. Um, to be kind to yourself. Gotta give yourself grace. Gotta give yourself grace. We're all just doing our best, man. So you mentioned one of the beautiful notes that uh um a teacher gave you before any other nuggets, some of your favorite nuggets that have been bestowed upon you from a great teacher.

Favorite Teaching Nuggets and the Rich Talarico Workshop

Abel

Man, that's a really good question. Um, I was looking at an old improv notebook. I know I should I should be doing more of a service to my own workshop, but this isn't gonna come out before my intensive, so it doesn't matter anyway. Um but I remember I was looking back and I found the workshop that I did with Rich Tallerico, and I realized how much I got from that one because his whole workshop, um, most of it I should say, was about space work and realizing that you know, I didn't I hadn't looked at it until recently, back at those notes. I didn't look back at those notes until recently. Um but you know, you're always talking about who, what, where. You gotta have who, what, where, you gotta have who, what, where. You gotta. You gotta. Do you? We just talked about examples where you brought me down. But that being said, a very simple, easy way to get two out of those three without saying a word is spacework. I always love spacework. And doing that workshop just really like shine the light on, hey, you're pretty good at spacework, or you're comfortable, I should say, you're really comfortable doing spacework, keep doing spacework in scenes. Yeah. This is like 2013.

What Is Space Work?

Joel

For listeners who don't aren't don't know it by that name, what else could space work be defined as?

Abel

Listener, um spacework. I'm just stealing that bit from uh from uh smartless. Um listener, spacework is pantomime or pretending to use a thing that is not there. Um, so you know, because it's improv, we don't have everything known to man at our disposal. So if I'm gonna pretend to sip a coffee cup, I gotta pretend to hold the coffee cup, right? Anyway, uh so spacework can be used as a very it is in my opinion, very underused in improv. For sure. Oh man. Yeah.

Why Space Work Is Criminally Underused in Improv

Joel

There's everywhere. Everywhere. Everywhere. I have this book that I got. Is it on the shelf right here? It might be on my on my nightstand near my bed. You got a lot of improv books up there. Yeah, that whole shelf is yeah. Um I'm still making my way through them. There's one that I'm going through, is uh is about physicality and miming. And in that book, he opens with in the prologue, you know, saying what you just said is like it's underutilized in all of improv, no matter where you go. It's underutilized. And it's such a beautiful part of the art form that literally transports the audience and the performers to a different space. When there's great scene work or uh space work on stage, I'm a m I see the oven. I see the towel in the bartender's hand wiping. I see it. I see the bartender in the oven. Yeah, and that's why platforms are important. Gotta define it.

Abel

That's what you get for making me a shitty old fashion, you son of a bitch. Um it's it's so underutilized. And so using see, he had the the exercise that I still do with students is he would he would he had everybody do it. It was like, all right, you're gonna enter this room and you're gonna tell a story, but without saying words. You're just gonna basically tell a story without saying words. And he actually left it like that, and I was like, holy shit, this for someone, and we were all improvisers there at different levels, but like everybody was there. It was this was uh improv camp utopia. Um, and this is like a weekend retreat, it still exists if you're interested in doing like three days of improv. Anyway, you did this exercise, you would come in, and so mine was I thought of it and was like, okay, I'll do this. I was coming into a kitchen and I was pouring myself a bowl of cereal and discovering that I was out of milk. That was it, and that's what I told without words. I spaceworked the whole thing, it was just reaction and spacework. Um, but through that exercise, it was really hammering home like you can tell a story without words 100%. I mean, silent movies were silent movies were a smash sensation before talkies, yeah, right? They were a smash hit for probably close to 30 years uh until talkies came about in the 20s and 30s, and all of a sudden it was like, oh, talkie, talkie, talk, talk, talk. But think about the dope movies that have no dialogue for start of you know, 2001 is arguably, you know, people's like, oh, it's such a great movie. Uh, but there will be blood. First, like 15 minutes of There Will Be Blood has zero dialogue. Are there words spoken? Sure. Uh WALL-E. Oh, Wally was one of my favorite movies. Wally's one of my favorite Pixar movies, if not my most favorite Pixar movie, which makes it probably a top 10 of my movies, maybe. Um, but the first 20 minutes of Wally, there's no dialogue. Are there words? Yes, yeah. There's exposition and there's announcements, yeah. And there's like machines saying things and there's no dialogue. There's no dialogue. There's no dialogue. You have a you have a who using that WALL-I as a specific example. You have a who, you have a where, and you got a what with no words. Yeah. Spacework. Spacework, baby.

Joel

Once I'm done with that book, I want to develop a workshop to do. Cause I because I want the book, I want to take away stuff to up uh to level up my improv game too, but also like thinking of a workshop to do. To do spacework. To do space work, like a space worker.

Abel

You got one? Dude, you want to do I used to I taught a class, I taught a four-week class on just spacework. Yeah. We would just do spacework. Yeah. All the time.

Joel

I think it needs I think it needs that focus. I think it needs that attention. Yeah. And that's something that oh man, I I feel like I'm gonna bring this up all the time in the podcast. But like I have a pet peeve in like just improv curriculums in general.

Abel

Yeah.

The Problem with Improv Class Curriculums

Joel

And I feel like there's no way in an eight-week curriculum or six-week or whatever the class is for where whatever city you're in, that we spend one day, one week of the total class on spacework. There's no way that stuff's gonna stick. One week on emotion, one week on tilt. For all those things to solidify as a skill. It's hard.

Abel

It's hard. It's hard because if you look at it, if I'm, you know, if I'm theater X, right? And I am very popular. Uh a bunch of people come to see my shows. But to keep the lights on and to keep, you know, the pay the rent, um, I also have to expand revenue, right? I have to come different, come up with different revenue streams. Great, classes. The easiest thing for a theater to do is do classes, right? So then it comes to a point of like, well, what's my market? Is my market a bunch of people right addressing the market? So I hear you a million percent. We, you know, schools, theater X, Theater X, all theater X's need to have a portion of classes that are really designed for the improviser. Like, hey, you want to do this for the rest of your life and perform in whatever capacity, you know, whether you want to form a team, whether you want to end up on Theater X's stage, regardless of the context, right? There's not that because of just plain old resources. I don't have the teachers, maybe Theater X doesn't have the teachers, maybe Theater X doesn't have the space, maybe Theater X doesn't have the market, maybe there's not a market, right? Like I remember teams from you know, let's say Comedy Sports Seattle, a bunch of improvisers there, but like they're all nine to fivers, they know they can do improv. Their improv is their hobby, so and they're already working on skills every month, they're already doing that, they're already doing that, they're already doing that. But if I'm theater X in Seattle, I can't tap into that market. I I'm just like doing shows and I'm doing improv because it's gonna help your public speaking or it's gonna help you your bedside manner if you're a doctor, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So as much as I do agree with you with with that there we need to we need to beef up curriculum or theater, all of the theater X's around the country and the world need to beef up curriculum for for improvisers specifically. I just don't think that the resources are there. Yeah. Until you get to a certain point of, oh, there is this interest, there is this market, there is this interest. Touching a little bit on a capitalism again.

Joel

I feel like it's sales, it's sales, it's the I would love to do, yeah.

Abel

I, you know, you and I both teach at Dad's Garage. I would love to do a spacework specific workshop. Yeah, I'd love that.

Joel

Yeah.

Abel

But I will come out. How many will come out and you know, all that stuff that goes with it?

Joel

Yeah.

Abel

So I agree with you. It needs to happen.

Joel

Yeah. I wanna I'm gonna test the waters. I'm gonna test the waters and build out um uh maybe like a four to eight week between those two. Let me know. I'd love to, I'd love to help you with that. Yeah, seriously. Um, I have here some what we have is some community questions submitted. Uh and this is a community questions. Uh that's gonna be the intro every week. Or maybe I'll improvise a new jingle every every

Community Questions

Joel

episode.

Joel / Abel

That's it. But for this one, it's community questions. Preguntas de la comunidad.

Joel

And in Spanish, beautiful, and in Portuguese, um Perguntas. Man, I don't know, I don't know how to say in Portuguese. Comunidad. I'm gonna guess that it's Comunidad.

Joel / Abel

I think it is. Preguntas La Comunidade. I think so. Something like that.

Abel

Someone someone told me, and I was like, well, I don't know. That's kind of problematic, but it's also very funny and accurate. Is that Portuguese is just drunk Spanish?

Joel

Yeah. I mean Comunidad. Sometimes it's exactly the same words. And sometimes it's completely different. So weird. Like I know Dios is Dios. Deus. Deus. Oh, also depends on the Portuguese, if it's Portugal Portuguese or Brazilian Portuguese. Oh, because I've Deush Deus. It's Portugal Portuguese, but in uh Brazilian uh uh Deus. Deus. So it's like being um improv. People are improv. Yeah, people are like starting out with this episode. Listener, if you're still listening. Um okay, so a question came in uh asking what do you feel the differences are from the LA improv scene and the Atlanta improv scene that you've

LA vs. Atlanta: How the Improv Scenes Differ

Joel

experienced?

Abel

Oh, really good question. Um overall, and this could have this mind you I've been in Atlanta for seven years, and I was kind of in a pseudo bubble from like 2010-ish. Not a full bubble, a pseudo bubble. And I say pseudo bubble in that I was doing improv at comedy sports and I was doing improv random places. Okay, so I wasn't like tapped into I.O. I wasn't tapped into UCB, I wasn't tapped into groundlings, right? I'd have like people that were doing classes. So I and that is the difference. That is the biggest difference with the LA improv community, is that, and I think it's changed now, if I'm sure if I'm not mistaken, right? Um, you know, my LA cats, please correct me if I'm wrong, but every theater had its different community. Like if you were at I.O. you were at I.O. You're at UCB, you were doing, you were doing jams and shows and herald nights at I at I.O. You were doing groundlings, you were like striving to be on that, you know, Sunday, Sunday company. You know, comedy sports, we were doing shows every week. And then my my long form team were at the improv space in Westwood, so we were doing shows there, very whole in the wall theater, very small. Um, nothing like doing improv shows for like the other team and maybe you know your mom. Um so that's I think the biggest difference is that every the community was very separate. It wasn't yeah, the community was respective to each theater. That's different in Atlanta. It is not yeah, it doesn't feel that the improv community is the improv community. Oh, you're going everywhere, you're going everywhere. They're going everywhere. You're uh you're going everywhere. I know you know, you know, people that are doing shows there, dynamic, you're doing shows at Daz, you're doing shows here, you're doing shows there. It feels like everyone's just supporting their friends and like their favorite teams and that is just wherever they're playing. And I'm not saying that there isn't support in LA, it just you kinda it's not as apparent. Yeah, it's not as apparent as it is here. Yeah, yeah. I might get in trouble saying that, but yeah, that's

What Does LA Have That Atlanta Doesn't? Actors.

Abel

how I see it.

Joel

If you have a problem with that, leave a comment. Leave a comment, leave a five, uh complain in the five, leave a five-star review, and then share your thoughts in that five-star review. Um, another similar question from the community: what does the LA scene have that the Atlanta scene does not? Actors.

Abel

Ooh. Actors, actors, yep, similar to what we talked about before. Yep. You have, and so what I just spoke about, you know, Seattle comedy sports, just as an example. So see uh comedy sports had like a yearly tournament every year, the quote unquote tournament, right? If it was in Chicago, the Chicago team would always win. It was just, you know, whatever. It was fun. But the whole point was to get all of the comedy sports theaters in one place for like five days of the year. It's great. So much fun. I only went to one, I went to two, one one was LA, one was in Chicago. Anyway, the thing that was most apparent, and Lauren Pritchard pointed out to me, just watch the other theaters and how they improvise and how their approach is. And I always I always I always call it like funny make em ups. You know what I mean? Funny make-em-ups. Um, and that is a very common approach as it pertains to improv, right? I think a lot of theaters approach improv as it's gotta be funny, it's gotta be comedy. Yep. And they forget the most important part of it, which is it's gotta be honest first. If it's not honest, it's not gonna be funny. Right. If you're trying to become it's like, I can't get the fuck out. It's like it's like a dad joke. It's like, okay, okay, gay, okay, dad. It's got you're gonna be looking at a lot of scenes like that.

Joel / Abel

Yeah.

Abel

Um, but that's what that's what LA, so you have it, doesn't make it any better, it doesn't make it any worse. It's just objective observation. When you have someone that is used to performing and that has cut their teeth in doing plays or shows or some semblance of performance, and then they're coming in to improvise, there's a different level. There, you know, you you're you're thinking you know, we're talking like stage presence, stage picture, levels, levels in that regard. You have the training and talking about levels of like someone's standing, I can kneel, someone's laying down, I can stand, upstage, downstage, right? Sharing your voice and projection.

Joel

Having that understanding, it is so crucial. I uh the the note that keeps coming up, telling students to face the odd turn, yeah, face the audience, technically stage presence, yeah.

Abel

And but and and then that's the thing. And then you have all the training that goes with having a theater degree. You gotta take a couple dance classes, you have to take your couple, you have to. I took a modern dance class and I took uh Indonesian dance or something like that. And it was like you you gotta know how your body works, dude. You're pretending. Yeah, you what are you doing on the improv stage? Yeah, how's that help with the space work and just just being comfortable in your own body? Comfortable in your own body. What does that unlock for you on stage? Doing a theater, doing a doing, doing theater, doing a play, you're immediately immersed in a collaborative environment. Oh, what's the lighting designer? What does the stage manager need for? It's tech. We're here from 10 a.m. to 8 p.m. running light queues. What is the impro what is what does the stage manager need from me? What does the lighting designer need from me as the actor? I'm just a fucking pawn right now. Oh, you don't know your lines, you better fucking learn them. Yeah, you know what I mean? And I'm not saying that like that's how directors treated you, but in your but you got to do your job. You talked about everybody's got their job earlier with the basketball team. That's exactly baseball is the same thing, and that's why improv and baseball for me are the, in my opinion, the most comparable because you got nine people in the field, right? In baseball pitcher, catcher, third base, shortstop, second base, first base, and the three outfielders, right? Everybody's got their job. When the ball is hit to one of them, the spotlight is just on them. Everybody else is moving, doing their shit, right? So if there's nobody on base and the ball is hit to the outfield, it's a base hit. The runner's gonna be safe. The second baseman is moving to second base, right? If it's hit to the left field, right? The shortstop's going out to cut be a cutoff, and the left fielder is gonna field. Everybody's eyes is on the left fielder as they field the ball. Right, that's where the focus is. Everybody's eyes is on the ball as they throw it to shortstop or second base. Everybody's got their job.

Joel

And this and the focus shift things are still happening.

Abel

The fo exactly things are still happening as the focus is shifting, right? So when you do theater, when you do a play, you you're in that environment. You you're automatically like, here's your job, know when to sit down and shut up, know when to sit. And I and I'm I know it sounds very harsh, but it's actually not that harsh. But that's the difference, and and that's the advantage. If you want to call it an advantage, but that's the difference that I know with the comedy sports tournament where I, you know, we got to go to Chicago, or or when you saw theaters from like San Jose and Seattle come and perform, hilarious and stuff, but you can tell, like, oh, you're not, you're not your career, you're not career-minded as being an actor, you're not you're not into performance. You're you're you know, you're an accountant, you're a lawyer, sure. And you get to do this comedy sports thing. And so there is that difference, and that is very similar here. The majority of people are here to have fun and and to have it as a hobby, and it's great. That's the difference, though. That's the difference.

Musical Improv and the Need for Bigger Stage Presence

Joel

Yeah, LA, I'm yeah, it's a larger actor market. Um Yeah, I'm finding myself well, especially because in musical improv, when I'm teaching musical improv, intermediate, and advanced, it leans more heavily on like the stage performance of it and the acting of it. Because if we're trying to replicate uh Scripted musical theater production, we need to be big. We need to be big and bold on stage, bigger characters, projecting more instead of the nonchalant improviser, um, you know, montage energy. We need we need the the big characters and big emotions for that to be successful. Yeah. Um, and so half, I feel like half I'm teaching musical improv and the the narrative parts of it, and then half is like just keep reminding people to be bigger, stage present. Stay present. Yeah. In the last community question that was submitted, do you have any tips for staying present in a scene and not overthinking?

Tips for Staying Present and Not Overthinking

Abel

Ooh, man.

Joel

Classic. Such a classic.

Abel

We don't have time. Sorry. No, no, no. Um any tips for staying present and not overthinking? Oof. Gosh, man, that is gonna be different for everybody. And I know that's probably the most frustrating response I could give, but it really feels true, though. Feels true. For me personally, I'm trying to think in terms of performance. All right. Is any have you seen have you seen Chef, the John Favreau movie? Yep. Did you watch the credits? No. Watch the next time you watch Chef, and this is for everybody, this is your homework, everyone. When you watch Chef, the John, the delightful John Favreau movie, um, the credits have a sequence with Roy Choi. Roy Choi was the inspiration of the story of Chef, and he was the ad the technical advisor on the movie. And there's a beautiful moment in during the credits where uh, so in the movie, uh John Favreau's character is making uh grilled cheese

The Grilled Cheese Philosophy from the Movie Chef

Abel

for his son, right? And they you know, they got the sexy, glamorous, like close-up shots of this delicious grilled cheese, and you're just like, Oh my gosh, that grilled cheese looks on me. It's like grilled cheese, I want to eat it, right? And so um, I don't know why I said that. And anyway, in the credits, you see Roy Choi talking about it, and he's coaching John, you know, he's talking coaching John Favreau. And the moment destruction the most, he's like, When you're making this grilled cheese, and he puts his hands like framing the grilled cheese, he's like, this is it, this is all that matters, is this grilled cheese. There is nothing else going on in the world except this grilled cheese. And that's that's it. I mean, that's how I approach every time I'm on stage. There is nothing else that matters except that person that I'm with. And if I start a scene, there's nothing else that matters than the thing that I'm about to do, or at least pretend to do with spacework. Nothing else matters. Everything matters right there. That moment. That's it. That's it. I remember uh a scene in a in a road trip where some it was talking about like drunk eating while drunk or something like that. I don't remember, but I came onto a scene, and my only idea, my only thought was I am drunk and I want to make some eggs. That was it. That was my only thing that mattered. I didn't, I had no, and I promise you, on my life, on my children's life, not to get all dramatic, but on the last thing.

Joel

Can I have a blood pact actually before you say this? We'll do a blood contract.

The Drunk Eggs Scene: Nothing Else Matters But This

Abel

Uh no, just kidding. Um, but no, like nothing else was in my brain except I gotta make these fucking eggs. I gotta make these eggs. And I think it was uh Courtney, Courtney came on, and um she said something about uh something in a bottle boyfriend or gosh, I wish I could remember. And I was like, I agreed with her, and I was like, I completely acknowledged her, and I and I actually ended up just saying drunkenly, like all I want all I want to do is make eggs. I even just said that that's what all I wanted to do because that's all I cared about. And then everything else after that became just that next thing. And because how does she maybe she wants eggs, maybe she wanted eggs too, maybe she doesn't want eggs, maybe she hates eggs, maybe maybe she's gonna be pissed at me for saying that I'm just cooking. Maybe she's pissed at that, right? So then it just becomes the next thing, right? It's the next step and the next step until we run out of steps. In each step, you're just focusing on nothing else matters, nothing else but this.

Joel

This is the next thing. This next thing. This is the next thing. My scene partner, what I'm focusing on right now, nothing else matters. Yep. Yeah, and hope you lock in that way.

Abel

And and it and it sounds weird because I acknowledge that it could sound weird because it's like, well, if you're only well, how do you know to like call back something? Or how do you know to like struggle?

Joel

Yeah, people are like, when do I know when's the right time to tilt? When's when do yeah, people, and it's just like, dude, it's art, man.

Every Scene Is Different and None Are Better or Worse

Abel

It's subjective. Like, if you, you know, parallel universes, right? Let's say this scene happens a million times, you will most likely have a million different versions of the scene, and none of them are any better or any worse than the other, they're just different, they just exist. And guess what? Once that scene is over, it's never gonna exist again. So there's no point in trying to quote get it right, unquote. Yeah, you're not going to, you're not gonna know where it's going when you enter the stage or you know, step on foot. You know, you're not gonna you're not gonna know where it's going, you're not gonna know where it's gonna end up, you just gotta go with it, man. Just gotta go with it, you just gotta do it, just be right there. Nothing else matters but the grilled cheese.

Joel

I love that. That's thank you for that. Though those were our community questions.

Joel / Abel

Community questions, preguntitas, preguntitas.

What Hooked You on Improv?

Joel

How did you know when you were doing improv that it was like, oh, I'm staying. I I want to do this for the rest of my life. Ooh, like what hooked you?

Abel

I think the I think the fun and the play.

Joel

Yeah.

Abel

I think the fun and the play. I yeah, that's the short answer. The fun and the play of improv is what hooked me. Um, I did a lot of stand-up, and that was not, it was kind of fun. There was play in it, and I have friends that are like doing amazing at it, and they're, you know, they're killing it out there. Um, and I remember even early days of our our our our careers were like this, and then I just stopped doing it, and they just like skyrocketed. Yep. Into stardom. But I remember uh, you know, they were, you know, we were tour guys together, and they would say, you know, we would be like, Hey, what are you doing tonight? You gonna hit up an open mic tonight? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would say, Yeah, I'll probably go to the this whatever open mic tonight. He's like, Yeah, I'm gonna go to that one, and then I'll probably hit up that one, and then I'll probably hit up that one. And I'm just looking at him like, yeah. Oh, yeah, that sounds about right. Holy shit. In my head, I'm like, I'm happy if I got to like three a week and this cat was doing like three a night. Yeah, you know, and so it's just a different vibe and a different dynamic with the stand-up world, in my opinion. Um, and then with improv, it just felt more, it felt more communal, it felt more connected. Um there's something about it. I think it's a very I was gonna get real granola-y, everybody. Watch out, California boy, Bay Area Boy coming at you, Bay Area Boy connecting. Just the the there is something very spiritual about improv that I think is um a very beautiful, terrifying, amazing, glorious thing.

The Spiritual Side of Improv

Joel

Oh, this is I want to talk about this. You're you're 100% right. There's a spiritual thing going on, and people aren't realizing the some of the lessons and principles we're teaching in improv, people aren't even realizing overlap with mindfulness, oh, overlap with Buddhism, about staying present, letting go of ego. Yeah, uh, just you know, oh, it there is so many beautiful overlap with some spiritual principles and like it's it's life-changing stuff. People come for the comedy, people come for the social stuff, they come to be a better attorney and to do better presentations at work. Yeah. Um, but what they don't realize is there's a spiritual experience happening. Yep. That's art life-changing.

Abel

It's art, man. Yeah. The connection, human beings as a species need connection to survive. It is it is in our DNA that that connection is absolutely necessary to form communities. You need a form of connection. And um, you know, you see it where it's like, you know, if you're out somewhere traveling and you see a fellow uh American citizen, it's like, oh, what's up? Or if you're in like a certain city and you see someone with the same sports team hat on, what's up? You know, you have all these different ways that you connect with people, it's there. It's and it and when you have everybody in the same room connecting with two people that are connecting, and it's different as to why, like, again, I'm gonna think something's funny because of this, and someone, you know, all of these different things are existing as one at the same time, and none of those experiences are being dismissed or lessened or anything. It's it's fucking magic, man. It's fucking magic.

Improv Is Magic: Connection as a Human Need

Joel

It's true. Um, there are these two books. If any if anyone wants to learn more about the spiritual mindfulness experience overlap with improv, there are these two books, improv shaman and improv wisdom, two different books. Um that I see improvis are incredible. Good. Yeah, they're good. Okay. I actually recently read Improv Wisdom because I had a student in my current level one who was like, I'm really enjoying this class. I love the way you teach. It like really speaks to me in like a uh spiritual level. He said, and it reminds, and I picked up this book and he's talking about improv wisdom. He's like, improv wisdom. And I confused it with another book I read, Improv Shaman. And so I was like, Oh, yeah, it's a fantastic book. I love the overlaps. I didn't know there was more than one book that spoke about these this these this topic. So I was like, oh man, yeah, the author's fantastic, she's incredible, and like her journey is so beautiful with improv and overlapping with her spiritual journey. And he's like, Yeah, I want I want to make sure we're talking about improv wisdom. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Wait, improv wisdom. Well, let me just write this down real quick. Wait, let me make sure. Wait a minute. Improv wisdom. Yeah. Um, he's like, Yeah, yeah, make sure it's the right one. Cause like, if you haven't read it, like, check it out. I was like, okay. And then I went home and I was like, oh, it's a different book. Oops. Um, so then I bought it and read it, and we have had an email exchange and talking about this book, and it was just another beautiful book about how improv affected someone's personal life. Like the the takeaways from improv is making them more present in real life, a better listener in real life, how it changed their their family, their friends. It just like changed so much.

Improv and Everything: Being a Better Dad, Husband, and Person

Abel

Every everything, man. Improv, improv everything, dude. Yeah. Improv and everything. It's it's really it really is truly like uh I think I'm a I think I'm a good dad because of it. You know, I think I'm a good husband because of it. You know, it's it's pretty it's pretty great. Yeah. It's pretty, it's pretty great. And it really is just like it's not this. That's why I think that's why I think, you know, I'm kind of anti the academia of it. It's because of the just like it's just raw art, man. It's like why are we doing this? Yeah. Um, I do see again, I do see the benefits. Uh, I just man, that the the rawness of it and the and the way the opportunity that we have to connect with each other. Yeah. You know, the scariness of that trust of like, here's an idea, and you can literally destroy it right now. And guess what? I'm gonna support you in destroying it. Now I'm gonna if my idea is this like porcelain sculpture, right? I'm also going to give you a hammer if you need it to destroy it. And that's kind of fucking crazy for a lot of people, and understandably so. Yeah.

Letting Go of Your Ideas and the Satchel Analogy

Joel

Um, about like releasing your ego, the idea you bring if it, if it your senior partner drops it, and just to let it go. Oh, and just and to flip and just support what the whatever the next thing is. Yeah.

Abel

Um, I love what I've been in the last couple years. The thing that I've been that that keeps coming up kind of in that regard is is is the idea that just because you don't say your idea doesn't mean it doesn't exist anymore. And so you can still have your idea, just wait on it. And you just wait on it. Put it in your pocket. Wait, put it in your pocket. Tim Stoltenberg has that pocket analogy. I have like an Indiana Jones satchel analogy. Put your idea in your satchel or whatever you like to hold here. You just like it's right here, ready for ready to go. Um and guess what? You might not need it at all. That doesn't mean it wasn't any lesser than it was just there. Yeah. You know, there's that old cliche of like, if you love something, set it free. It's the same thing. It's like you have the idea, if it happens, it happens, and if it doesn't, if the opportunity's right, it may come back. You may have, you know, the scene might go long enough where you get to be like, Oh, my idea fits right in here, doesn't it? You know, it's kind of one of those things. So and then you come into the curiosity aspect of, all right, what happens if I don't get any ideas out? What happens if none of my ideas are used? How does that feel? What does that mean for me? Does that mean I'm a shitty improviser? Does that mean I didn't contribute? Does that mean I'm a bad person? Does that mean all these things, right? You get allowing yourself to be curious about why you need it. I need this idea to come out. Why do you need the idea? Ask yourself why you need the idea to come out. You know what I'm saying? I like that. And ask, go ahead and ask. It's not wrong. I never call, you know, it when I bring it up, I don't call people out like you shouldn't feel that way. How dare you? It's like, fuck off. You feel how you want to feel. Why are you feeling that is so necessary? The curiosity, you know. I tell people a lot, curiosity and acceptance. It's just the constant cycle of curiosity acceptance. Every scene is a constant cycle of curiosity and acceptance, right? If you're starting a scene, I'm coming on curious, like, what are you doing? Interesting. In my head, I'm looking to see what you're doing, and then I'm accepting what you're doing. And then I'm wondering maybe how you feel about it. Or I'm wondering why this might be important to you. I'm wondering why you're washing the dishes

Curiosity and Acceptance: The Constant Cycle of Scene Work

Abel

or whatever.

Joel

I love that. I feel like that's a beautiful way to approach scene building.

Abel

There's just curiosity and presence. I almost I submit that if you are not starting a scene, you're always curious.

Joel / Abel

Yeah.

Abel

And even when you do start a scene, curiosity immediately takes hold once someone else is in there. Arguably, I take that back. I think once you start something, you're always still curious, deep, like on a sub on a subconscious level, right? So I'm like, I'm thinking about going back to the egg, make making the eggs example. I'm thinking of, all right, what's next in my making eggs? Do I want scrambled? Yeah, I want scrambled. Do I want oh I need to put butter? What where's my butter? Is my butter? Oh, my butter's in the door of the fridge. Where's my knife? Oh, I need a butter. I need a butter knife. Oh, here's you know what I'm saying? You're constantly on a sub in a very basic level, you're curious. Where's this? If I'm using spacework, right? Where's where's my where's my roommate? Roommate? Or you know, Carl, where are you at? Curious. Where are you? Curious, always curious, and accepting. Right? And you're still accepting. Oh, sorry, I was just in the bathroom. No, you weren't. You were yeah, you were you were in the bathroom. Okay, cool. You're accepting, yeah, yeah. Oh, gross, you're in the bathroom. You don't tell me that. You just whatever. I don't know. I'm going off the road, but the the point is it really just always comes back to that. It's a constant cycle. Staying curious, curious in acceptance, curious and acceptance, curious and acceptance.

Improv Life Lessons and Ocean Waves

Joel

I love that. So many beautiful life lessons in improv. That's it. That's what you're doing in life. It's what you were doing in life.

Abel

What this driver is doing right now, coming into my lane. I've got to accept that they're coming into my lane, and now I and now the solution is to avoid them so I don't get in a crash. Yeah. If I don't accept that they're coming to my lane and don't do anything, well, they're gonna crash into me.

Joel

I feel like I feel like you're speaking of this little road incident, I feel like improv has helped my road rage. Oof, yeah. I ca people are like speeding by or cutting me off with comebacks and arguing and road and arguing, or just like not getting mad about it. Oh, sorry.

Abel

Now in general, I know what you mean.

Joel

Oh yeah, it's it made me really quick to get mad and retaliate. Um, no. It would um how it feels is like I somebody speeding by now or cutting me off. I'm like, I don't know where they're going. I'm curious about like I wonder where where there's a bob. Yeah, ocean waves. Ocean waves.

Abel

You've seen uh one battle after another yet? Yes, a beautiful, yeah, crazy. Dude, Sensei's Benicio de Toro's character. I love his character. Yeah, my dude, that's my like that's been my mantra this year. Ocean waves. Ocean waves. Yeah, yeah.

Joel

Ocean waves. Yeah, they're there and then they're gone. Ocean waves. In and out, in and out, always constant flow.

Abel

Yeah, yeah. Be like, you know, Bruce Lee has a great uh it's actually from uh like one appearance he did on a TV show where he's like, I'm not a teacher, I'm just I'm just a coach encouraging you to explore aspects of yourself. And that's kind of how I look at teaching. I'm like, I'm not, I'm not teaching you anything really. I don't, I I I guess I am just for lack of a I don't know what else. But like, I'm just curious about what you like about this thing. I'm curious about what makes you comfortable, I'm curious about what scares you, I'm curious about what you feel like your weakness is because only you're gonna know that.

Joel

Yeah, curiosity, you're right, is it feeds it feeds life, it feels our it feeds our everyday life with interactions with strangers, at the grocery store, at work, doesn't matter. Just staying curious and interacting, curious and connecting. That's

Curiosity Feeds Everything

Joel

it.

Abel

Ocean waves, ocean waves, and then and then you know you get into with with the scene work and stuff, it's really just um the the continuation of that that curiosity allows you to continue to stay in the moment. You know?

Joel

Do you have something and this may be similar to something that you've already answered, um, but something that you love to teach your beginner improvisers, like your students?

What Do You Love Teaching Beginners?

Abel

Oh, that you're already doing it. You're already doing it, you're doing it every day. Did you know when you woke up this morning? Did you know what exactly you were gonna say to everybody that you interacted with today? Unless you're a robot or a crazy person, the answer is no. No knock on crazy people. But you know what I'm saying? Like there's nobody on this planet that wakes up knowing, okay.

Joel

I know every single thing that I'm gonna do today.

Abel

You might know where you're going and have an idea. Sure. Like, oh, I gotta return this thing, you know, I gotta drop off the Amazon delivery at at you know the UPS store. And so I'm kind of like, as I walk in, going over, I have a return. Do you need anything from me? Or do you need to see my ideas? Like I have my little I might have like my my go-to in my head, everybody, you know, ordering those ideas in your pocket. Okay, do they all right? Are they gonna be and then you're clocky? All right, oh boy, this person looks oh, this person looks like they're having a great day. Awesome. I'll give that energy back. Cool smile, you know. So you're already doing it every day, you're doing it already every single day. I have an exhaust the subject exercise that I do. Um exhaust the subject. It's called exhaust. I just call it exhaust the subject. And we did it, I did it. Oh man, I feel so bad. I forget her name. She coached our impro, our long form team for a few sessions, a few practices back in LA, and she was great, but I'm blanking on her name completely. But I stole the exercise from her, and she would have us improvise this way where anything that came up, you would talk about. So if you're like waiting to ride an elevator, you would just talk about elevators. But what I do is with students, I have them. So if you and I are in a class, you and I would just sit like we're doing here, and we'd get a topic like movies or music or food, and we just talk about movies. Not we're not doing a scene. We're literally just like, hey, did you see did you see just like Joel and Abelle talking? That's it. Okay. Oh, did you see one battle after another? Oh yeah, no, I haven't seen it. Oh, yeah, what's the my last movie you saw? Oh, I saw Sinners. Oh, wasn't that great? Yeah, yeah, and it's just a back and forth about movies or back at whatever. Exhaust it. And yeah, and the reason why it's general is because there's so many things to talk about with movies. Right. As long as it relates to movies. But that's the only rule of the game or the exercise is that you have to stay within that umbrella topic. Right? I can talk to you about like, you know, when I was a kid with my parents, we used to go every Friday to the block to Blockbuster and pick out like three movies. And I could talk to you about like when I go to the when I go to the movie theater where you get a huge bucket of popcorn in the, you know, we get different containers so the butter's in the middle, and then you put the I love that. So you're just talking about all this stuff. That's it. And you get everybody to do it. And then after that, that's literally the the culmination, sort of the culmination of the first day of level one of a first day of improv is just that. Like, hey, were you listening? Were you chipping in? Were you contributing? Or were you just listening and asking questions? That's also contributing. You're already doing it. You're already improvising.

The Exhaust the Subject Exercise

Joel

Already doing it.

Abel

You're already doing it. So the thing that I like to as a long-winded way, but the short answer is uh for a level one class or for someone that's just starting out with improv, I like to let them know that they've already been doing it. I love that.

Joel

Sounds like a nice little confidence builder right off the bat.

Abel

Yeah.

Hot Take: Art Is Too Important to Take Seriously

Joel

Do you have any improv hot takes? Uh something that you on your mind, something you want you want to share with the community. Uh gosh.

Abel

Uh I don't know, man. I don't know if it's hot takes as much as it's like just if you're teaching improv. I don't know how to say it without sounding like a dick. Oh, sounds juicy. I love it already. It's probably not that juicy. It's probably I think I've just said it already. It's like this is an art. Yeah. Stop trying to make it more than that. There's an Oscar Wilde quote, which is Um Art is much too important to take seriously.

Joel / Abel

Yeah.

Abel

And it's that's really how it is. And I know it's contradictory, but that's Oscar Wilde, right? Like that's that quote. That's the kind of I don't know if there's the point of the quote, but yeah. It's just too important. Improv is fantastic, it's important, but it's just that quote, man. It's too important to take it seriously. It's too important to take it too seriously. Just take it, just to take it, yeah. Yeah.

Joel

Yeah.

Travel Light: You Don't Need Your Whole Tool Belt on Stage

Abel

Yeah.

Joel

Yeah. I guess because I think for a lot of people it becomes like a stressor, right? It shouldn't be a stressor.

Abel

And it shouldn't be a stressor. When you look at all the people that we like to go and watch, right? Like, I think the real, you know, the whose line is it anyway, cats that tour, and Ben Schwartz that tours, and you know, uh uh Matt Walsh, that just you know, um people that come through dad's garage that they're you know, quote unquote stars, they're right. Um why do what do we love? You know, everybody that I'm like, hey, would you like about the show? Every single time they're like, they're just having a good time and playing and and having hello McFly. There it is. There it is. You're just playing. I gotta do the platform. I gotta check out these boxes. Yeah, no, you don't. Again, just connect. Learn the tools. Yeah, please learn it. Learn how to use a screwdriver, learn how to use a hammer, and then leave them on the fucking shelf until you need them. You don't need to carry your whole tool belt, your whole fucking arsenal of those scene. You don't need it. You travel light, man. You look, I I used the analogy I used to use too was like pretend like okay, people go like you're in a fucking expedition with the fucking backpack and the fucking, you know, the sterno stove and the the pots and pans on a camping trip and um they like primitive camping. No, you're you're going on a light every improv scene, you're going on a light hike. That's it. You got your water bottle, light hike, you got a snack, you got a sweater, you're good. You'll know when you need the fucking heavy duty sleeping bag. You'll know. Yeah, you'll know. But odds are, guess what? Odds are the show will already be that. If you're playing in a format, that's the thing. You already know you're playing in a format, you already know the tools you're gonna have to use. It's like carp, it's carpentry, man. Like, I know I'm gonna build the table, I'm not gonna need dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. I'm not gonna need a probably a wrench to build a table. I'm gonna need a drill and hammer. You know what I'm saying? I'm probably not gonna need a wrench. Maybe, but often not, probably not, right? So know that you're only gonna need X, Y, and Z. Yeah.

Joel

And just remember that the art, the play, and remember the fun, art and the play. The play. Focus on that. That's it, man. I love it. Abel, anything else on your mind and heart you want to talk about? Share?

Abel

Uh I'm feeling I'm feeling good. I'm feeling excellent. This is great, man. This is great. This was so much fun. I had a fantastic time. Um, I probably could gather. I could do this for days.

Joel

Um, I mean too. I mean, there's uh I love it. We'll do we'll do another.

Abel

Yeah, let's do this again. Let's do this again. I would love to do this again. Thank you so much for having, man. Uh and I'm really happy that you're doing this. Me too. I'm excited. This is great. You got it like a whole setup here.

Joel

Way to go, man. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. It's something that's uh important to me. Yeah, looking for other ways to you know help supplement the education. In the I think there's a lot of learning to be done from other people's experiences in life. And um, yep, I love it. I love it. It's a sample culture, man. You might as well just keep sampling. Yeah. Thank you so much, Abel. You're welcome. Thanks for being here on the Joy of Improv podcast. I want to say thank you to Matt Isaacs. Thank you so much, Matt, for editing these episodes. Matt is a talented and kind member of the Atlanta Improv community. If anyone out there has any audio editing or song mixing needs, please reach out to me at Joel at the joyoffimprov.com. I'll connect you with Matt and get you on your way to getting some clean, fresh audio. If you're enjoying the podcast and you want to support and keep this podcast going, you can support in one of two ways. You can leave a five-star review. And if you do, please leave an improv topic that you want us to discuss or perhaps a question for a future guest. Another way to support the podcast is to give a monetary contribution on our Ko-Fi page. Anything helps, a dollar, five dollars does not matter. Anything helps in keeping the podcast going. You can find the link to contribute in our Instagram or in the link in the episode description. Thank you so so much for listening. It means so much that you're here. See you next time and see.